Your opinion please...

Raymond · Your opinion please...

Many of you will know there are two things I love in this world. Bad parents and kids.

I happen to have both living right next door (not for much longer I might add.)

Anyway, allow me to tell you the story of this sorry den and I would be very interested to hear how you might solve the problem.

Both the 'parents' are under 20 and both are retards (or to put in nicely, both have "learning difficulties").
Neither has a job because apparently thier "difficulties" make it difficult for them to work however it doesn't seem to impinge upon thier abilities to smoke, drink, gamble, have sex, claim benefit and fight a lot.
Our wonderfully liberal society has deemed it perfectly ok to allow these two to have a child.
So they have a 2 year old boy (almost 3) who still can't speak and communicates by screaming.
Whenever the child wants something he simply points at it and screams, and trust me when I tell you, this kid screams like a friggin' banshee.
All I hear during the child's waking hours is screaming.
Social Services (that wonderful organisation) has now decided in order for the child to experience a normal upbringing, he will live, for 3 days a week, with a foster family and this will also give the natural parents "time out".
So on Sunday evenings somebody comes in a car and collects the child and he is returned on Wednesday evening.
Today I hear the woman is pregnant again, so the whole sorry cycle will start again.

So I put to you, dear forum member. How would you deal with this situation?
I know what I would do but then I'm not exactly the most liberal of souls so I really am interested to hear other points of view.

Bravo

Question 1:
If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?

don’t try to answer, just read on :)

Question 2:
It is time to elect a new world leader, and only your vote counts. Here are the facts about the three candidates.

Candidate A.
Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologist. He’s had two mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.

Candidate B.
He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in college and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.

Candidate C
He is a decorated war hero. He’s a vegetarian, doesn’t smoke, drinks an occasional beer and never cheated on his wife.

Which of these candidates would be our choice?

Now, for the answers;

Spoiler:

Raymond

To question 1 I would say no to abortion because deafness, blindness and being mentally retarded aren't conditions of bad parenting.

As for question 2 I would have chosen candidate B, even before I saw the answers.
After I saw the answers I was even happier because I would be only too happy to have someone like Churchill back in charge.

I fail to see how this answers my original question though. Are you saying perhaps we should just allow these people to continue breeding on the off-chance they may produce another Beethoven some day?

If you're happy to pay for these people's offspring Bravo then good luck to you mate, but personally I'd be quite happy to sacrifice a bit of classical music if it meant less of these kind of people roaming about.

meiah

To me, the problem is not that they have children, but that they themselves are unaware of good parenting. Maybe the solution is education?

Bravo

I'm not suggesting anything other than allowing them to live their lives.

What are the alternatives? Sterilization? Forced seperation via government intervention? Forcibly removing the child from them forever?

These types of option have been tried before, I think you know when.

Am I happy to pay taxes for losers scrounging off the state and never giving anything back for it? No I am not.

I believe the state benefit system is a good one as it is designed to help those less fortunate than ourselves (and indeed us) when times get rough. A bit of a backup that I believe is vital in a civilised society.

The downside of this is we do get the layabouts that opt to waste their lives trying to squeeze the system for what they can get. It is a price I believe is worth paying.

Raymond

Bravo

Bravo

Also, you raise it yourself, the question of 'who decides?'

I know it's a question you want to avoid, which is why you raised it as you did to try put it off (admit it Big Grin

) but the fact remains it still has to be asked.

Now, what if whoever gets appointed as the decider decided that people who practice witchcraft must be loopy so sterilise them, also weird people that think they can communicate with the dead, or whacky conspiracy theorists.....I think my point is made

Great topic btw I'm really enjoying these debates

meiah

Indeed it is the nature of our species.

Some want a baby to have something to love, but do not know how to. How do you teach someone that?

swanlady

sorry but my feelings on it is to sterilise the woman so any off spring does,nt have to suffer.

evergreen

really I'm kind of surprised swannie, what if someone wanted thought that for your child ?

So many different issues in this situation
Its a hard call -- I'm for termination myself

I'm not into the whole social work system where kids end up in the system and actually can become totally dis empowered to look after themselves..

my neighbours have five kids and she is 25 they aren't my favorite parents in the world but they are trying what more can you ask- and in fact I have seen them grow up loads and become better parents- I guess I have become a better parent over time too

david hobbs

Raymond if I were you I would find a witch and get them to change your life mate.

Do I detect the old problem here?

It works when I work for others but actually I find it hard to do it for myself. It's a very common thing.

My advice would be to work some majik.

swanlady

Bravo

I think it is wonderful that there are so many differing viewpoints on the same subject, yet the one thing I see that unites us all is that we have made our personal decidions/beliefs on a basis of love.

The only disagreement is where the emphasis on that love should be placed.

This is a forum full of good people.

Raymond

swanlady

It would have been a lot kinder to that girl if someone had taken control and had her sterilised.

david hobbs

Motives.

We look after small children, or at least we should.

We should also look after those who cannot, through no fault of their own, look after themselves.

Is your motive to nurture or to remove something which in your eyes is distasteful to you.

I think that with a lot of people they don't want to share their world with something that they see as ugly, and embarrassing.

Where do we draw the line.

swanlady

where we should draw the line is......

Making sure that us out there with children with disabilities can live a full and happy life, and not lose control of their lives by having children that the are unable to care for correctly.

Its a sin to the child with the disability and also the child they bear. In the end they both suffer.

So why not take that obstacle away to begin with so the disabled child can live a full and happy life with no problems, or as few problems as neccessary.

I must say though, that it depends on the severity of the disability with the person to begin with.

Each person is an individual and must be looked on as that. An individual.....

david hobbs

Good answer but it raises even more questions.

How many people do you know that have a full and happy life?

There are also people in this world who are made happy because they care for others less fortunate than themselves.

It would not be my model of an ideal life but to some it is.

Bravo

It's the bottom rung of a very nasty ladder (and if your bottom rung I certainly wouldn't answer it).

So, we start sterilising disabled folk (who or what counts as disabled 'enough' is a very difficult question to quantify but let's go with it).

Next step, people who are political extremists shouldn't be allowed to spread their hate.

In fact, anyone who doesn't agree with me should be sterilised.

That t-shirt does not go with those shorts! Sterilisation for you!

swanlady

I see where your coming from Bravo. but its not as easy as that.

Its a very loaded debate with too many numerous answers.

david hobbs

It does have many answers but the thrust of what Bravo is saying is this.

Do I as an individual with my limited life experience and all of my prejudices really know what is right, and what is wrong?

So I ask the question.

Do we?

swanlady

I can,t answer for everyone, only for myself.

I can only do what i feel is right for my children, and hope that other parents do the right thing by their children.

But then we don,t live in a perfect world do we???

david hobbs

Raymond

This does actually throw up some very interesting points because I also know of a single mum with two young kids who happens to be blind.

The two boys seem well cared for and perfectly happy but should a blind woman be allowed to have two children?

The point of all this for me is as follows, I wouldn't stop anybody from having a child if they really wanted one (although I think anyone who wants a child must have a mental illness in the first place), so long as they can care for it and pay for everything it needs - BY THEMSELVES.

It's when their need for a child starts encroaching on the rest of us that I start to get humpy.

The blind woman I mentioned above, she has 24 hour support from various home helpers to help her with the boys.
The council moved her into a four bedroom house - one for her, one for each of the boys and a room for the overnight help.
She was also given a car for these helpers to drive the family around.
The blind woman doesn't work so it's not like she's contributing anything.

So just because this woman wanted a couple of kids and our liberal society believes she has a right to a "normal life as possible" she is costing the NHS more than probably all of us combined on this forum.

Yet a friend of mine can't get vital treatment she needs for breast cancer because her local authority have deemed it too expensive.

Is that fair?

laura

this is where this country has gone ridiculously pc.... 30 yrs ago if someone was mentally disabled the GP who knew the family would give advise and unwanted pregnancy would be stopped with a "pill in the pudding!" ..... communities do not lookout for one another now, gp's have no idea who you are, the extended family has been replaced with the need for individuality and equal oppotunities has ruined any attempt at common sense.!
As for the safety net that bravo spoke of..... when i needed it for a very short time, i was laughed at...... apparently i have the wrong coloured skin, am too well qualified and am too British.

so ..... lets get back to a place where common sense rules and lazy gits are chastised...... amen!

Raymond

<-------------Applauding

LAURA FOR PRIME MINISTER!!!

I know a young couple who wnat to start a life together. They tried to apply for a council flat and were told, in these words; "If you haven't been to prison, aren't a single pregnant woman or not an illegal immigrant you don't stand a chance".

When exactly did we decided to reward bad behaviour?

Oh yeah, May 1997.

billy nomates

raymond...........

go to www.order-order.com

you can vent your spleen over there.no charge-say what you want........

don't put anything about your poor cat on there though!

i nearly cracked a rib when i read that comment...

evergreen

who decides who is disabled and who isn't???

What constitutes a child who is well cared for and one who isn't? and what's to say because that child may have had a tougher upbringing that they won't go out into the world and make incredible advancements and changes based on that early challenging start....

There are a great many people who are not disabled but drunks and drug users and abusers and they would all still be able to have children.. for heaven's sake some see gay and lesbians as disabled the world is full of judgment and self-righteousness and a whole lot of ignorance

I for one am often totally in awe of the love and affection many 'disabled" parents offer to all around them not just their children

Leave them be let them live in peace who do we think we are

I know as a single parent life gets tough and my kids have come through it all and not just survived but thrived in a world So different from the 'functional' family I thought I was going to have... nothing is forever and we should perhaps not think ourselves god to make the choices for so many others

swanlady

I don,t think of myself as god and like i said, i can only speak for my children.

Just don,t start me on the druggies again. you all know how i feel about them. Shoot the lot of them!!!!

laura

EG.. i wasn't playing god... my point was that the parents and carers(ie doctors) were able to realise the potential or not of disabled children ,in the past! people worked together .... and i feel that the care was individualised because of this....
these days it's all.... must be politically correct.... must be giving equal opportunity (even when realistically it is not for the best of the individual involved).
return to the old values ...that's what i say... it wasn't broke ..so why fix it.....in the name of progress..the world (and especially this country) has gone mad! xx

swanlady

I,ll answer this post tomorrow when i,m not in such a foul mood.

evergreen

Laura & Swannie.... I wasn't being personal about anyone on here at all........ not even remotely referring to anyone other wise I would have said a name and made a personal reply like I always do.

we are all in different positions with different minds and opinions and that is exactly my point unless you are in that position how can you really know how can you really be informed how can you say what is right for certain? god help anyone who decided I wasn't able to have kids

Laura
I am actually all for communities bringing up families.. that you are also referring to a time when religion rules the masses, people lived in fear of god and devil, women were sent away for various reasons (we were basically second class citizens), homosexuals lived in the closet (and were bashed if they didn't) and people lived for the day they could marry their daughters off and have grand kiddies if you want to go back in time are you willing to take the good with the bad? I'm not I'm happy with my freedom of choice and I happen to think that others are entitled to it as much as I am

We are a society that is still growing up... perhaps we need these things to challenge us so we can create change and move forward

Raymond is referring to his neighbours and I am still replying to that topic

would I place my child on the pill- most likely but could I place Raymond's neighbours on it that is not my call at all... I guess the difficult must have laid with their parents in the first place..... ?? I'm not sure because I don't' know them..... other peoples family matters are not a matter for me to make a call on I have enough to worry about in my own life without taking on the challenges of the world........

Raymond

meiah

I wonder if an assumption is being made here that it is the parents fault. Do you know for certain that the child is not affected by some physical or mental condition?

Hmm...I wonder how many times I blame the parents when in fact there may be some other factor at play, which I know nothing about.

Raymond

I'm assuming of course it's the parents' fault, I don't know what the modern politically correct term is but in the old days we would have called these people "simple" or "backward", I think they call it 'learning difficulties' these days.

In short, neither of them has the sense of a 5 year old between them so how can they raise a child?

We really have got to stop being such bleeding hearts. It's destroying our society.

david hobbs

I think that we as a society have grown to large.

Instead of big why not go back to the days when local groups (tribes) made their communities work together.

They new each other and what was required to survive.

We are ruled by people who are far removed from us and make general rules instead of local rules.

Most of us do not even know our neighbours.

This society will only get will only get worse as government is taken further and further from the people.

meiah

Not knowing our neighbours, or our community is an individual decision. It takes very little to knock on the door and say "hello".

When I moved in, next doors popped round, the chap over the road helped with my TV aerial, and the chap next door to him offered to help us shift stuff around if we needed some help. It works both ways. We help each other, or just say hi.

Ok, it helps that this town has a village mentality, and we are all equally nosy (whoops, I mean interested in what is happenning), and that the pub is about 50 footsteps away, but the point is that we all need to take responsibility for ourselves individually, and to build our community.

Raymond

I agree with Meiah on that.

Where Ilive it's about as far as you could get from "village mentality" but I know most of my neighbours because I've made the effort to get to know them.

Some people round here don't want to mix and they're left to it but most are happy to stop and chat.

I don't understand these people who say they don't know their neighbours.
Many a time I've had to pop next door in a state of desperation because I had run out of toilet paper.

evergreen

I always hear most of us do not know our neighbours but I think that is rarer than we think I think most people make some effort to know them

By the way if these were my children who were having children my view may be different - however that is not the case