david hobbs
|
Selfish pagansI was listening to a priest on the radio saying "pagans are only interested in themselves".
I suppose he could have a point, especially after my visit to the Salvation army this week. I think most Pagans I know are self interested.
What do you think. Are pagans selfish?
|
Raymond
|
It depends what you mean by selfish. Most pagans I know (myself included) would rather do charity work for Mother Earth or animals rather than people.
Why? - I've no idea. Maybe it's because most of us see the problems of the human race as self inflicted and therefore deserving.
Maybe (as in the case of Witches) most of us see most people as mere muggles who are undeserving of our time and attention (I must admit, I am growing increasingly in this direction).
I was having a conversation the other day about ego in Witchcraft. It's a bit of a double-edged sword because while it causes a lot of problems in the craft it's also needed.
A witch is not a witch unless he or she has a very healthy ego.
A witch needs to have a hightened sense of "I am brilliant. I can do anything" otherwise his or her craft simply won't work.
Christians (and to me that's everyone who isn't a Witch because you're all influenced by Christian thinking) see this as a bad thing because it basic Christian teaching to think of yourself as subserviant and 'lesser than'.
Also, it brings forward the question Mr. Hobbs, is being selfish necessarily a bad thing?
|
evergreen
|
for heavens sake why do we insist on lumping labels on people and then sticking them in some grup and then bad mouthing them....
I know many people who are often selfish never have I given it a second thought it they were christian or pagan... or Jewish or male or Asian or blah blah
what a ignorant comment  yeah I'm totally over it .. all this would youth week here in Australia has me so over religious labels and generalisations big time
|
Sceptic Tel
|
Re: Selfish pagans | david hobbs wrote: | | Are pagans selfish? |
Aren't we all? In life all we can be certain of is that we will always be with our Selfs. Every act be it "selfish" or seemingly an act of kindness is for the benefit of ourselves, our Karma. Can anyone truly confess to being Selfless?
|
Raymond
|
Well said sir.
|
Deb's
|
I don't think pagans are selfish... infact they care so much for mother earth how could they be selfish?
What's the Sally Army got to do with pagans? the Sally Army are christians....
Does it not surprise you that it was a 'priest' that claimed this??? Ooooer and I wonder why.....
Alot of the christian traditions came from pagan beliefs, not that the christians would agree mind you....
For example.... the winter solstice falls around the 21st Dec where we worship the sun (pagan)
The birth of christ... 25th Dec where we worship the 'son' of god (christian)
Even the good ole christmas tree and the yule log is a pagan belief....
Raymond.... a witch needs to believe in what they do.... suppose it comes with ego too.... When you feel strongly, passionately about something your ego naturally soars....
love & light,
|
david hobbs
|
I don't know why the Priest said that pagans are selfish but I would guess that it is because they are interested is self development and understanding rather than adhering too a middle eastern import for a religion.
You cannot be controled if you think for yourself and the church don't like that
|
Deb's
|
I agree Mr Hobbs, Religion is about control. The bible in part is about control.... I would of been burned at the stake long ago... and there is no way according to them I will enter the kingdom of heaven.... been to naughty!!! 
love & light,
|
evergreen
|
all men are born equal
isnt' that in the bible ????
|
Deb's
|
Ah we may be born equal, but then we have free will and if we sin we will not enter the kingdom of heaven according to the bible.... So what is a sin? According to the bible if I dabble in spiritualism I will not enter the kingdom of heaven... If I have sexual preferences to the same sex, I will not enter the kingdom of heaven, tell me, is this really a sin? If I stole to feed my starving children would I burn in hell?
To murder is obviously a moral crime and then what do we do? We murder in punishent compunding the original sin... Not here anymore thank goodness, but what of the murderer who murders the murderer?
Oh dear, getting a bit tongue twisted here lol.
I don't know about the kingdom of heaven, but I believe we all cross no matter how we have lived our life... every living thing crosses... And if the kingdom of heaven can justify killing someone because that someone killed or can be racist against religion or gays.... then I would not want to enter the kingdom of heaven....
love & light,
|
Raymond
|
Ok, I just want to add what I think 'ego' is. Ego is having self worth. Ego is about believing in oneself and one's ability. Ego is pushing yourself to the front of the queue. Ego is putting yourself in the spotlight. Ego is providing for yourself. Ego is independance. Ego is not needing the permission or approval of another. Ego is the ability to make change for yourself and others.
You can see why in a christian society ego is viewed as a bad thing.
I'm proud to be an egotisical b*stard. At least I'll never starve.
|
Deb's
|
Raymond, you do make me smile. 
love & light,
|
david hobbs
|
| Raymond wrote: | Ok, I just want to add what I think 'ego' is. Ego is having self worth. Ego is about believing in oneself and one's ability. Ego is pushing yourself to the front of the queue. Ego is putting yourself in the spotlight. Ego is providing for yourself. Ego is Independence. Ego is not needing the permission or approval of another. Ego is the ability to make change for yourself and others.
You can see why in a Christian society ego is viewed as a bad thing.
I'm proud to be an egotistical b*stard. At least I'll never starve. |
Well here is the dictionaries definition.......
Noun - The conscious and permanent subject of all psychical experiences, whether held to be directly known or the product of reflective thought; -- opposed to non-ego.
So then the ego is, that which experiences. Interesting to think that is all we are, experiencers.
Nothing to do with how much of a big head people are.
|
Deb's
|
I like Freuds take on it... freud said we have an id and ego and a superego. The ID is what we are born with... I want, I shall have etc, me me me. Then there is the ego when we realise that our actions have consequences etc as we grow a little older we realise that we can't have what we want all the time... life is just not that simple... then we have the superego... which is 'martyr' type maybe that the wrong word... someone who believes themself as a do gooder... a saint...
I think of it this way....
The ID is the naughty side/devil
The superego is the good side/angel
And the ego sits in the middle, trying to balance the two.
To me our ego is just our personality, it's how we use it that counts.
love & light,
|
Raymond
|
Ok Debs, he also said all women have penis envy and all men want to shag their mothers.
I think we can move on...
|
Deb's
|
Why does everyone mention that? You have to take into consideration the era he livedin, women were thought very little of and men ruled.
The penis envy thing is simply where females wished they were males, young males wished they were older males and young males feared loosing the effection of their mother to their father... You have to look deeper than the bad choice of words he used.... People hear the words penis envy and go off on one... but think about what it means... This is where he talks about the different stages of growing up.... oral, anal, phallic etc.... I have brought up two boys.... and they have each gone through these stages... personally I think he's spot on!
It was because of Freud that we started to look at the unconscious mind, the subconscious mind... and I still think his theory on the ID The EGO and the SUPEREGO are spot on...
love & light,
|
Samjaza
|
Perhaps Pagans are selfish because alot of them work alone i.e. Hedgewitches and follow their own path. Can be difficult to see your faults because we all like to think we're perfect in our own flawed way.
Better this than following like a sheep to hear priests waffle in monotone voices on dogma they refuse to elaborate on or digress from eh?
|
david hobbs
|
Perhaps it is because the church see themselves as a community, and they view pagans as definitely outside of that community.
After all most group belief systems cannot understand why anyone could be stupid enough to be outside of that belief system.
Oh, and that goes for pagans too.
|
Raymond
|
Who gives a tinker's cuss what the church thinks of pagans anyway? Certainly not the pagans!!!
|
Raymond
|
| Deb's wrote: |
It was because of Freud that we started to look at the unconscious mind, the subconscious mind... and I still think his theory on the ID The EGO and the SUPEREGO are spot on...
|
It was also because of Freud that the medical establishment started viewing homosexuality as a mental illness and began treating it with electric shock treatment.
I'm not saying he's a bad guy Debs I'm just pointing out that he comes from a time where a lot of what he said was based on supposition and like others of his time most of what he said has now been discredited.
|
evergreen
|
I'd have to agree with the opinions on Freud he was a great mind but he didnt' have the answer for everything and not everything should have had the sexual reference that he gave it.
And I think many societies were looking at the unconscious mind long before Freud coined the term but he brought it into scientic terms and like all things then they owned it and gave it "meaning" for the masses.
|
evergreen
|
| Deb's wrote: | Why does everyone mention that? You have to take into consideration the era he livedin, women were thought very little of and men ruled.
The penis envy thing is simply where females wished they were males, young males wished they were older males and young males feared loosing the effection of their mother to their father... You have to look deeper than the bad choice of words he used.... People hear the words penis envy and go off on one... but think about what it means... This is where he talks about the different stages of growing up.... oral, anal, phallic etc.... I have brought up two boys.... and they have each gone through these stages... personally I think he's spot on!
It was because of Freud that we started to look at the unconscious mind, the subconscious mind... and I still think his theory on the ID The EGO and the SUPEREGO are spot on...
love & light, |
my point is if we are all born equal when then did the church have the term savages for those not born under christain faith.... and in my mind they think very cloesly to these lines still.
----you are equal as long as you are one of us otherwise you need help to become one of us
|
david hobbs
|
Quote.....
----you are equal as long as you are one of us otherwise you need help to become one of us
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes the human race is so insecure that it permanently needs reassuring that it's belief's are facts.
If you disagree then you are telling them that their life is without basis.
Let's face it we would all like to think that we are here for a reason and that there is some entity watching over us.
We never grow up.
|
Raymond
|
I wouldn't agree with that Mr. Hobbs. I have met some very secure people who think that this life is all there is and once you die that's it. game over, lights out.
For a number of years I used to think that way myself.
|
|
|
