laura
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religion?I was asked today a very simple question.... but i struggled to answer...
"What religion are you?" was what was asked of me .... and i have to admit a great debate followed....
i have come to the conclusion that I acknowledge all religions but can not wholly accept any.
How would you answer this question?
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KathUCH
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Hi Laura,
I like this question for several reasons ! Firstly because I hate asking people this question myself if I have to for work ,also because I share the same viewpoints as you.
I always end-up replying "I don't really have a religion" and because I'm a caucasion married woman who maybe fits a certain stereotype, on a couple of occasions the person asking has said:
"I'll just put down C of E then,is that ok ?!" (!!!!)
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Hunter
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My answer is simple.....................
I say I'm an atheist, with a tendance to theosophy (I don't believe in a supreme being, but am interested in the history of religions !)
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Raymond
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It depends on the situation I suppose. I've been asked this question a lot this year due to my many hospital visits, and due to the fact that most NHS desk staff are as thick as sh-t I normally say I don't have a religion.
If tehy looked like they know what a pagan is then I will say pagan but the last thing I need is some geeky GCSE educated oik saying to me "What's a pagan then?"
I've find this is a problem when they ask for my ethnic origin. My nationality is British (like everybody in the UK) but my ethnicity is English, and that never seems to be on these forms.
So I leave it blank.
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david hobbs
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I always reply Pagan but in truth I don't think that I really have a religion at all.
Religions are made up by people.
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Waffle King
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Technically speaking i'm a catholic, but the day i follow the pope (again) will be a fine day indeed, i tried it our properly for a year last year maybe the year before, just wasn't really for me, so now i'm a Mikeyist, i belive i am god, and i worship myself by doing what i do best, and earning only self respect, and sharpening my mind 
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david hobbs
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| Waffle King wrote: | | Technically speaking i'm a catholic, but the day i follow the pope (again) will be a fine day indeed, i tried it our properly for a year last year maybe the year before, just wasn't really for me, so now i'm a Mikeyist, i believe i am god, and i worship myself by doing what i do best, and earning only self respect, and sharpening my mind |
And that is almost true Waff but do you really worship ie honour yourself.
And what is your self?
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wackyjacky
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I was Christened a Protestant but like the rest of you I don't follow religion. I must admit though, it did come in handy when applying for schools. I didn't christen my son as I think that he should be able to choose a religion if he so wishes later on in life. He can learn all about the different religions on offer and if he wants to join a particular religion, then its his choice. He only got into the school he's at because I was Christened (its a C of E school), though roughly 80 - 90% of the students there are from other denominations! If he hadn't of been bright, I'm not sure they would've taken him.
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beantighe
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Your case, Jacky, is a classic example of why I think religion should be kept out of schools. That isn't the same as not teaching about different religions.
Schools should concentrate on giving children the best all-round education they can, and not fill childrens' heads with biased dogma. I think it just goes beyond the pale when parents have to prove they've been christened before their child can go to a certain school. There have even been cases of parents who have lied about their religion, or taken a crash course to convert, just to get their child into a particular school. In my view, that makes a mockery of religion. Anyone can spout things they've learned by rote - it doesn't mean they believe it. And that's why I think there shouldn't be any denominational schools.
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Hunter
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In France no form of religion is allowed or taught in schools & hasn't been since 1901.
Children learn about the basics of religion in history lessons !
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Raymond
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I remember when my two youngest sisters were at school. Round here, by then, all the schools had gone to pot.
My second youngest sister was made to go to a mosque and pray to Allah so my parents' had her out of the school and into a catholic school, but even then she had to go through all the rigmarole of confirmation and my parents had to go to church every week for about 6 months just to keep her in the school.
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david hobbs
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Are you saying that your sister had to go to a Mosque on a regular basis or was it a one of educational visit to see how others worship?
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evergreen
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I reply no religion or not applicable... its a stupid question..
I recall my mother going into shock at being asked her religion into fearful Australia... when we first migrated
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beantighe
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Why was that, EG? The shock, I mean. You came from Ireland, so was she catholic? And why was Australia fearful? I don't quite understand.
Personally, I don't see why anyone should have to give their religion. Not unless you're in hospital and they need to know what kind of priest to call if you're about to kick the bucket, lol! It worries me when authorities and those who design forms for us to fill out are so obsessed with what a person's religion is. I wonder what they'd do if you put something like The Flat Earth Society? 
It's true, I really believe religion causes more problems than it solves, because everyone seems to want - or demand - to know what a person's belief system is, and then they judge you by it or think you might be a potential threat.
And while I'm here - does anyone else get as annoyed as I do at being asked for their 'Christian' name? Just because I'm white European, why do desk-bound pen-pushers (wherever they're to be found) always assume I'm Christian? I might be Jewish, or Hindu, or Buddhist for all they know. Would they ask any of them for their Christian name? It really bugs me, and I just say: No, you can't have my Christian name - you can have my first, or given name! 
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Waffle King
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| beantighe wrote: |
It's true, I really believe religion causes more problems than it solves, because everyone seems to want - or demand - to know what a person's belief system is, and then they judge you by it or think you might be a potential threat. |
Religion is power, power is dangerous, dangerous people need guidence so thus turn to Religion, it's a viscious circle, if not for someform of religion we all hold to ourselves, and as for Potential Threats, if the Jews never existed, (for example, not singling them out or anything), who would run the business world? If Hitler hadn't of had Jews to maim and slaughter, who would he have gone after?
So in true waffleking style, i'm propally talking rubbish and you all think i'm wasting your time, but thats how i see it. 
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Hunter
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| beantighe wrote: |
And while I'm here - does anyone else get as annoyed as I do at being asked for their 'Christian' name? Just because I'm white European, why do desk-bound pen-pushers (wherever they're to be found) always assume I'm Christian? I might be Jewish, or Hindu, or Buddhist for all they know. Would they ask any of them for their Christian name? It really bugs me, and I just say: No, you can't have my Christian name - you can have my first, or given name! |
Also one problem , for certain people, is that their name on their birth certificate is not the one they use, either having changed their first name upon baptism (therefore they should give their baptismal name), or out of pure strangeness.
My parents had a female friend who was known as "Dick", (what made it worse & I perhaps think she was too naive to realise was that her married name was Head, therefore DICK HEAD !), and some are known only by their nicknames. I know many people in my town only by their nicknames, it must be a local thing, e.g. I'm "L'Anglais", the Englishman.
Names are just that, names. Centuries ago no one had surnames, and they were designated by a particular characterisation or by their profession.. Smith, Fowler etc..... Redman (red hair), Black (black hair or skin).................
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beantighe
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I see what you're saying, Hunter, but why ask for a 'Christian' name, when you might not be Christian? I don't know about French, but in Spanish they have 'nombre' for a first name, and 'apellido' for a surname, or family name. That way there's no confusion. I just think asking for someone's Christian name is an outmoded habit which should become obsolete in today's multi-cultural society. I do actually find it offensive, as I'm sure other non-Christians would.
And Waff, I don't think you're talking rubbish - I think what you're saying is that in order for some people to feel powerful, there has to be a scapegoat, and if it isn't one group of people, then it will be someone else. Assorted religions are very good at scapegoating others. So is this the fault of religions per se, or is it just the human condition, whatever religion they belong to?
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wackyjacky
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I've lived in London now for about 20 years now and I've never been asked for my Christian name, only my first name and surname (and maybe the odd time for a middle name!). I have had experiences of being asked for my Christian name but I never really felt offended by it (probably because it was a common thing to do way back when I was younger  ) though I can understand that anyone of a different religion would... in saying that, would the people of other religions be asked for their Christian name?! 
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Raymond
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| david hobbs wrote: | | Are you saying that your sister had to go to a Mosque on a regular basis or was it a one of educational visit to see how others worship? |
It was a one-off educational visit. So many of the parents at the time were outraged by it - and quite right too!!!
It's one thing to teach religion in the classroom (although I personally don't agree with it) but it's quite another to get them to put on headscarves and make them kneel to Allah and recite the Koran.
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beantighe
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| wackyjacky wrote: | | I've lived in London now for about 20 years now and I've never been asked for my Christian name, only my first name and surname (and maybe the odd time for a middle name!). I have had experiences of being asked for my Christian name but I never really felt offended by it (probably because it was a common thing to do way back when I was younger ) though I can understand that anyone of a different religion would... in saying that, would the people of other religions be asked for their Christian name?! |
My point exactly, Jacky. It's the assumption I object to. It's even a form of stereotyping - white European = Christian. This is a sleepy, sometimes backward neck of the woods down here - not like your bustling metrollops, lol! Why, you'll barely see a black or brown face down this way, except in Plymouth or Exeter! We still chew straws and wear smocks down here!
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beantighe
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| Raymond wrote: | | david hobbs wrote: | | Are you saying that your sister had to go to a Mosque on a regular basis or was it a one of educational visit to see how others worship? |
It was a one-off educational visit. So many of the parents at the time were outraged by it - and quite right too!!!
It's one thing to teach religion in the classroom (although I personally don't agree with it) but it's quite another to get them to put on headscarves and make them kneel to Allah and recite the Koran. |
That would have had me spitting nails if that was one of my kids, Raymond!
There was a time when we lived in Wiltshire and my two eldest were at the village primary school. Their class was learning about Hinduism and Diwali. The teacher wanted to hold a Diwali celebration, with the dressing up and the food etc and they were going to have it in the Methodist Hall as it was near to the school, but the Methodist minister wouldn't allow it as it wasn't Christian. The kids had to go to the Village Hall instead.
No wonder kids are getting such mixed messages and end up confused. When I was that age, the confusion arose between what people told me to believe and how they actually behaved. It was a clear as day to see that the two didn't match.
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Sian
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I really don't see what the problem is.
My daughter Carys is still a bit young for all this but I will certainly have no problem whatsoever about her going to a mosque, wearing a headscarf and participating in muslim worship as part of an educational trip.
This world is full of hate and the majority of that hate stems from ignorance. I don't want my daughter to grow up hating people because of thier religion.
Islam is a complex religion, believers spend years if not their whole lifetime learning about it. The best way for someone totally alien to their customs to learn more is to try living their life for a while.
What is so wrong about showing children in a practical way how other people worship? Surely they were not being brainwashed into conversion!
If a letter ever comes from Carys' school requesting permission for her to visit a mosque then I will sign and return it with no delay and be first in line to volunteer to help. Only through education will our children grow up less bigoted and ignorant than our generations.
I wonder how many of the people who felt this was unacceptable have actually spent time studying Islam? It is a religion based on modesty, understanding and generosity.
Yes there are extremists, just like there are in every religion, it just happens that this is the time for Muslims to be villified in the press solely to make it easier for the world leaders to declare war on muslim countries where there are assets to be exploited.
I hoped that the members on here were intelligent enough to see through the propaganda.
I have lived and travelled in Musilm countries. While travelling I lived by their laws and customs - by choice - as far as it was possible to as a lone female. I have enormous respect and affection for the people I met and the way they live their lives.
If my daughter decides in the future to study Islam I will do everything I can to help and I'll be very proud of her for not being a closed-minded sheep.
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Raymond
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| Sian wrote: | | I wonder how many of the people who felt this was unacceptable have actually spent time studying Islam? It is a religion based on modesty, understanding and generosity. |
Really? Maybe that's why none - and I mean NONE of the Muslim parents at the school would allow their kids to go to a church or a temple or some other place of worship at the time.
I really don't know how you can say Islam is a 'modest, understanding and generous' religion Sian.
Did your travels ever take you to the rural parts of Pakistan? Where women are punished if they show too much flesh?
Or what about Iran where homosexuals are hung in public just for being homosexual?
Maybe that's the middle-eastern idea of modesty, understanding and generousity but it certainly isn't mine.
No child of mine will ever be taught that women are second class citizens or that homosexuals are in any way sinful.
If that's your idea of 'open-mindedness' and that's how you want to raise your daughter then all I can say is, may the gods help her.
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Sian
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You raise some valid points Raymond.
No I have not travelled in Pakistan, I have briefly been to Iran, most middle eastern countries and pretty much all of northern Africa with the exception of Libya (they don't do tourists).
Let me answer your points one at a time.
1. I cannot speak for Muslim parents. I am not one. Why did they refuse to let their children visit a church? Did anybody ask them? I would be genuinely interested to know the reason.
2. I base my opinions on Islam on the majority of people I met on my travels. I spent 6 months in Muslim countries living with these people, not on tourist routes but out in the desert with a rucksack. I ate at their campfires and washed my clothes with the local women. I was treated with respect for the majority of the time.
3. Your point about rural Pakistan - as I said I haven't been there so I can't comment apart than to say that Islam does not demand women to be covered head to toe. The koran states that women should dress in a modest way, not revealing thier bodies to men other than their husband as a mark of respect - to themselves as much as their spouse. If rural communities choose to take this to extremes then so be it but it certainly is not the norm for the vast majority.
Again your point about homosexuals being hung in Iran, Yes the Koran is against homosexuality - as is the bible. Again there will always be extremists. I do not agree for one moment. Whatever a persons sexual orientation they still have the right to live thier life in peace and I believe that most people would agree. The middle east in general is still a very conservative area of the world. I'm not in favour of their ways but I'm not going to condemn an entire religion because of it.
Different countries and different cultures do things in different ways. Their ways may seem barbaric or cruel to us but they quite probably think the exact same thing about us. Are your morals more moral than theirs?
4. My daughter needs no help from your gods or anyone elses. I am bringing her up to learn about a person and their culture before she makes a decision about whether they are right or wrong. Who are you to question another persons morals? Who are you to question someone elses religion? We all live our lives the best way we know how.
I am teaching her to look at the whole picture, not the tabloids. Any extreme views should be given a wide berth in my opinion. I answer her questions honestly and encorage her to ask questions. I buy her books on subjects she asks about and I feel that a religious education is very important. i do not restrict it to one religion. Since she was a baby I have read her religious stories from as many different religions as I could find the books for. I want her to be a well rounded and open minded child and adult.
If that makes me wrong in your view Raymond that's your tough luck not mine or hers. I hope my daughter will grow up to see a world full of people not labels. I don't give a shit if someone is fat, thin, straight, gay, muslim, buddhist, whatever. They are a person with rights just the same as mine or yours.
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Raymond
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In answer to your first question, the muslim parents wouldn't allow their children to visit other places of worship because they viewed it as 'pointless'.
To them, Islam is the only religion and Allah is the only God. They didn't see the point in their children learning about other faiths as all other faiths were wrong.
Of course, you must raise your child in whatever way you see fit. Hopefully by the time she's an adult the next world war would have come and gone and either Islam will be wiped out or will rule the entire world. I'm sure, thanks to your teachings, she'll be well equiped for either outcome.
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evergreen
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haha you guys are harsh lol
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Raymond
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| Sian wrote: | | Their ways may seem barbaric or cruel to us but they quite probably think the exact same thing about us. Are your morals more moral than theirs? |
Oh, I nearly forgot. When it comes to murdering people because of the lifestyle they lead or the clothes they choose to wear, then yes, my morals are infinately more superior.
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Sian
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| Raymond wrote: |
Of course, you must raise your child in whatever way you see fit. Hopefully by the time she's an adult the next world war would have come and gone and either Islam will be wiped out or will rule the entire world. I'm sure, thanks to your teachings, she'll be well equiped for either outcome.
Oh, I nearly forgot. When it comes to murdering people because of the lifestyle they lead or the clothes they choose to wear, then yes, my morals are infinately more superior. |
So you are saying that it is ok to persecute people because of thier religion but not if you don't like their clothes or sexuality?
The world doesn't work like that Raymond.
You are contradicting your own argument!
You don't choose religion just like you don't choose your sexuality. A person can be brought up in a strict religious family and totally reject that way of life if it doesn't feel right to them. You live your life and if religion is the thing for you then that is part of your life. In the same way the right religion for you will become apparent as your own beliefs and personal set of morals grow and develop.
Were you brought up a wiccan or pagan or whatever you choose to call yourself and your beliefs? I doubt it. You found your own path.
Were you brought up gay? I think I can safely say that most people assume thier children to be heterosexual until given a reason to think differently. Did you choose to be gay? I don't believe it can ever be a concious choice, just as I don't believe that being a wiccan/pagan or any other religion is a concious choice. If it is the right path for a person they will follow it.
I am teaching my daughter to accept and understand the people around her and how they live their lives. I know this is a better way than teaching her to hate, to discriminate, to live in ignorance.
You live your superior life, it's your right as a human being. I feel the point you are missing is that the extremists of all religions and all other causes think they and thier morals are superior too.
That is what will cause the next world war.
Curiosity may kill the cat but superiority will kill the people.
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Raymond
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| Sian wrote: | | I feel the point you are missing is that the extremists of all religions and all other causes think they and thier morals are superior too. |
And the point you are missing Sian is, yes, all religions and walks of life have their fringe extremists.
All of them have a few who just seem to take it all too far.
The difference with Islam is it isn't just "the few". The extremists of that religion are most vertainly in the majority. The vast majority.
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Sian
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Raymond you are wrong.
You are allowing yourself to be misled by the media.
I thought you were more intelligent than that but obviously I was mistaken.
I do not particularly care whether we agree or disagree. We are on different sides of a very big fence here. I'm not trying to convince you my opinion is correct, partly because it's just my opinion and I am as capable of being wrong as you are -and partly because I don't argue with tabloid thinkers.
One thing though - we have proved why religion is such an emotive issue and so prone to start wars. There is no proof of the existence of any gods of any religion and therefore no definitive way to show who is right, no definitive answers, therefore it will always be a matter of opinion which will always be biased.
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Raymond
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| Sian wrote: | | You are allowing yourself to be misled by the media. |
And you are allowing yourself to jump to incorrect conclusions Sian.
I have said on here once before that I haven't read a paper or watched the news in over a year.
I have also said that I live in an area that is over 90% Muslim. I form my opinions on the things I see and hear going on around me every day.
As always, my offer is open to you as it is to anybody who thinks I'm making all this up. You're more than welcome to come and stay with me for a few weeks and make up your own mind.
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laura
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i understand that you are basing your opinions from your experiences raymond...however.... from my own observations it would appear to me that communities that are within another country seem to show the extreme views of a religion... i suppose the expectation of these communities is that of misunderstanding or rejection ... so thus they portray themselves with a huge chip on their shoulders with something to prove....offensive rather than defensive......
to experience the religion within a country that is predominately that religion ...i am sure as sian stated , you see it from a different perspective.
i am with sian , in that i encourage my children to find their own path to experience and show understanding to all people no matter what their religion or sexual orientation... know and love the person not their labels!
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Raymond
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I just find it impossible to show tolerance and understanding to a group of people who refuse to tolerate and understand others.
It seems strange to me how the leftie do-gooders go out of their way to defend Muslims when they are probably the most ring-wing, intolerant group on the planet.
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Waffle King
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Not all 1.5 Billion of them surely Raymond??i mean, that 1/6th of the Worlds population are all malice and vainly evil, of sure yeaha! geesh Raymond, if you belive that everyone of Islam is a bad person, then review some of your gay icons and what religion they are, i'm sure you'll be shocked at who of them are of Islam mate
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Scott
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I work in inner london for a local council and I have to say that a lot of the muslim i see are just regular people. i can see what raymond is saying tho. I get the feeling with a lot of them that they would like to convert us all to their religion and get rid of all the others
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david hobbs
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Well that applies to a lot of religions not just the Muslims
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Raymond
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| Waffle King wrote: | | Not all 1.5 Billion of them surely Raymond?? |
I sort of get waht it is you're saying in your usual 'arse-about-face' way Waff, but yes, I do think the vast majority of those 1.5 billion people support the antics of Islamic terrorists and would love to go to war with western civilisation.
I'm not aware of any 'gay icons' being muslim actually. Would you care to point one out?
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laura
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| Raymond wrote: | | I just find it impossible to show tolerance and understanding to a group of people who refuse to tolerate and understand others.. |
but you've got to start somewhere.... teach our children tolerance and compassion... eventually it will have a knock on effect and will be reciprocated..... well one can live in hope!! 
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Waffle King
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| Raymond wrote: | I do think the vast majority of those 1.5 billion people support the antics of Islamic terrorists and would love to go to war with western civilisation.
I'm not aware of any 'gay icons' being muslim actually. Would you care to point one out? |
Vast Majority?? have you rescently had a brain hemorage or something?? cos thats just a stupid generalisation and not to mention quite rascist, i know a few muslims, and none of them (thats out of about 25) agree with the Terror or the Ideas behind them, i maybe an essex bloke, but even i'm not stupid enough to belive that several million people want to raise there hands and say "9/11, fucking great idea that was Ishmail!", and it's not that the East wants to go to war with the West, more like the West wants to conquer the East for the Oil Fields and the Gem stones and the Excellent Persian Rugs!
As for Gay Icons that happen to be of Islam, a gay friend of mine in Cardiff quite likes Janet Jackson for her non-existant songstressing and shes of Islam.
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david hobbs
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And they make a bloody good curry too.
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Raymond
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Thanks for walking into that trap Waff. I knew you were going to mention Janet Jackson.
Firstly, as far as I'm aware she isn't a Muslim. She's expressed an interest in it (as did her late brother) but I don't believe they actually made it all the way into full conversion.
As for being a gay icon, she used to be but since her recent anti-gay outbursts her 'fag-hag' points have been well and truly discounted, a bit like Donna Summer when she said all gays should be crucified when she became a christian.
Two half decent careers that will never recover since the gays turned their backs.
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Raymond
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| Waffle King wrote: | | and not to mention quite rascist, |
Oh yeah, nearly forgot about this one.
SO WHAT?
If not wanting my country and culture over-run by a bunch of backward, murder-hungry ragheads makes me a racist, fine, I'm a racist.
Deal with it.
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Taz
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Sorry, I disagree that the main thrust of what Raymond was saying is racist.
In an ideal world we'd all get on and be tolerant of each other.
We don't live in an ideal world.
I know many Muslims who are decent, law abiding, kind and tolerant individuals who respect the traditional culture of the UK.
I also know many who are quite the opposite, who seem to want to destroy the traditions of these islands and who actively disrespect people of other faiths, especially if they happen to be female or gay - they want the UK to become a Muslim state.
Saying that there are people within the Muslim community who would be happy to convert us all (by force if necessary) to Islam is not racist - it's simply a fact.
By the way, my opinions come from time spent working and living in a multi-ethnic, multi-culture community, not from reading The News of The World or The Daily Mail.
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Raymond
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Calling me a racist simply won't wash. I was lucky enough to not be influenced by the left-wing brainwashing agenda of children that's been going on in schools since the early 80's.
I could think of far worse things to be accused of.
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evergreen
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I love this forum...lol aren't you glad I told you so ha
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