Where and when did the idea of covens working naked come from?
Kas
Hugh Hefner?
Raymond
It actually came from Gerald Gardiner, the founder of Wicca.
As well as being a an occultist and folklorist he was also a keen nudist. He decided to incorporate being naked (or 'skyclad' - clad only by the sky) into Wicca because it made sense to him that Wicca being a nature relgion it should follow that it's followers worked in the nude.
I don't know of many Wiccans who work naked in group workings but quite a few do when working alone.
Kas
Aren't they worried about getting splinters off their broomsticks?
david hobbs
It's not much fun getting bitten to death by mozzies.
That's what always happened to me and Magi at coven meets.
In future I shall stay indoors and point my wand at the plasma.
stardust2
On rare occasions I have worked skyclad with the coven and I work skyclad on my own a lot but if you are not comfortable with the human body then you can do it clothed but you must make sure you do not wear man made fibres.I find cotton clothing is the best.Remember only clothing made from natural fibres.
david hobbs
Did you work that way because you just felt like it or was there a need for being naked?
Oh, and what time of the year was it?
stardust2
We do it becouse it feels right to be in our natural state.We only tend to do it in the summer and spring. Yorkshire is not the place to be naked outside in the winter.
Raymond
stardust2 wrote:
Yorkshire is not the place to be naked outside in the winter.
I wouldn't fancy that anywhere in the UK during the winter to be honest.
It's the nudity thing that always grabs people's attention first. It's like 'nudity = sex'.
When it comes to the naked body most people will always remain 12 years old I'm afraid.
beantighe
My first brush with Wiccans was 11 years ago, and I was a very new Pagan then. I was invited to join a teaching coven as a novice, and the HP and HPS, who were man and wife, lived next door to me. They insisted on doing all indoor rituals skyclad, but it was compulsory and I didn't feel at all happy about it. Then the HP invited this old guy, who must have been well in his 60's at the time, to join us. I didn't like him, he was smarmy and couldn't keep his hands to himself. I told the HP of my misgivings, but he just brushed them off as nothing. The next time we did a ritual upstairs in the HP's house, this creep touched me inappropriately and I freaked out. I could quite cheerfully have jumped out of the upstairs window, just to get away. I absolutely hated it, and the HP wasn't a nice man either - he was an egotistical, manipulative bully and he scared me. He had me in tears once, shouting at me. I had to get away from them, and even moved house. I had wanted to find a teacher very much at the time, but this awful experience put me off covens for good.
stardust2
This beantighi does not look at all right to me.You did right getting away from them.Being skyclad has nothing at all to do with sex and this old man should not have touched you he sounds like an old pervert to me.
And as for being skyclad in a house well that is not right.The all point of being skyclad is to be in your natural state in natural surroundings like woodland and not in a man made house.
Are you sure they were real wiccans or just pretending to get people naked in there homes.
our HP and HPS would never insist that somebody works skyclad if they are not comfortable with it.
beantighe
Yes, I've learned a lot since, about what's right and what's not. I do believe they were Wiccans, but with hindsight I think it was just the HP who had his own agenda. I quite liked his wife, she was genuine, but I know for a fact that he bullied her, as the dividing wall between our houses was paper-thin, and I could often hear him shouting and swearing at her and her daughter, who was from a previous relationship. And yes, this old guy was an absolute pervert - he even rang me up making suggestions that we could 'see' each other, - but his wife mustn't find out! I told him where to get off in no uncertain terms!
I wrote to an organisation called the Whitestone Survivor's Network, which was supposed to help victims of coven abuse. They took 2 months to get back to me, and then said they couldn't find anything against this coven, and suggested that it was me that had the problem!!
In the end, I wrote to Marion Green, the author, for help, and she was great, she wrote back and said that this was nothing to do with witchcraft, this was abuse, and told me to get out of there and never have anything to do with them again, which I did. But this HP had put it about that I was mad, so that nobody would believe me if I tried to tell anyone, and I was so scared I didn't have anything to do with other pagans for at least 2 years after that.
stardust2
Its sounds to me like they did not even try to get something on this coven.I first came into contact with my coven when I was 8yrs old and became a member when I was 12yrs old and I am now 38yrs old so thats a long time and in that time we have met up with many other covens and I know what a coven is and how they work so if I had looked into this I think I may have found a problem there.And they should never have suggested that it may be you that has the problem.
Coven abuse is not very common but unfortunately it does happen.
Most citys have some kind of witchcraft shop these days so my advice to anybody that is suffering coven abuse would be to walk away from the coven and ask the witches in the shops for advice and most true witches will be glad to give advie.
Raymond
stardust2 wrote:
Are you sure they were real wiccans or just pretending to get people naked in there homes.
Could be an angle for you Hobbs!
Sorry, I shouldn't make light of this. I've heard of this Whitestone lot before. I've also heard they're utterly useless before too.
Sorry to hear you had such a bad start in the craft Beany. Look on it as the God and Goddess testing you from the word go, and the fact that you're still involved with the craft means you passed!
david hobbs
Getting your kit off has nothing to do with spirituality.
It has an awful lot to do with dirty old sods having a peek at your bits.
Some say it makes you all equal but when you see the egotistical twats
that run some of these covens there is no way that they consider anyone their equal.
beantighe
There's two quotes from Marion Green's book A Witch Alone that have always stuck in my mind:
'Some pagans are so keen to be skyclad that they have to wear a house'
and
'goose pimples are not magical!'
She maintains (and I agree with her) that it's much more important to be out in Nature, well wrapped up in coats, scarves and wellies, than to be stripped off indoors, in a man-made building, just for the sake of being naked! When it comes to being out in the woods, watching a glorious Full Moon ascending majestically through the bare tree-branches, or huddled in a room trying to catch glimpses through a badly-positioned window, I know darn well which I prefer!
stardust2
Nobody said anything about spirituality.As I said before the point of being skyclad is to be in your natural state in natural surroundings like woodland.
And as for the dirty old sods having a peek at our bits if we thought somebody was there just to look at our bits they would be removed from the coven on the grounds of being untrustworthy as I said before sex has nothing to do with it.And touching while skyclad is not allowed by the coven.And if a member is not comfortable working skyclad then thats fine we do not force anybody.
And as for HP and HPS being egotistical twats well I will give you that one some are. However that is only a minorty of covens.
Most covens are not like the one that beantighe was a member of.
stardust2
We only work skyclad if it is a warm night and never indoors that would be pointless.
beantighe
I would have loved to have had the opportunity to work with and learn from a good, bona fide coven, but it was not to be. Unfortunately I have found it exceptionally hard to find a group of people that I feel totally comfortable with. After 2 years alone, I plucked up the courage to go to our local moot, only to find it was monopolised by a clique which was almost impossible to penetrate. I always felt like an outsider, and I sat there one particular evening and not a soul spoke to me. I used to wait patiently at the end of the evening to try to say goodbye to people, but couldn't get a word in edgeways, and in the end I just had to turn away and go, or I would have missed the last bus home.
beantighe
What do you do in the winter, Stardust?
stardust2
It would be stupid to do it in winter we have our health to think about so we wear cloths made from natural fibres such as cotton and wool.
And you are right you do need to be comfortable with a coven other wise there would be no point being with them.
And I am sorry to hear about your local moot.It is not like that here we welcome new comers and make them feel welcome.
david hobbs
quote. Nobody said anything about spirituality.As I said before the point of being skyclad is to be in your natural state in natural surroundings like woodland.
And that is not a spiritual experience?
beantighe
That's what I tried to do, too. My friend and I - well two friends actually, tried to start up an alternative moot, so we could attract newcomers. We even held it on a different day of the month, at a different venue, so that people could go to one or the other, or both. However, the old crew found out about it after 3 months, and all came along mob-handed, and eventually they hijacked the moot and I was frozen out again. If I was trying to chair a meeting about arranging a festival celebration, trying to hold things together, they would all talk among themselves, and before I knew it, they had made their own arrangements at a venue that I couldn't possibly physically get to. It was almost impossible to get any help, because their attitude was, You arrange it, and we'll come.
I have been at some awful gatherings, which my friend and I slaved to organise. There was one midsummer one up in the woods here. It was supposed to be just for our moot, but people spread the word far and wide, so that we had complete strangers turning up with all their kids and dogs. One girl even brought a three-month-old baby, and another lot brought their dog, even though they knew it didn't get on with other dogs, and then just sat by and let it run loose. Another time, someone brought a dog that ran amok peeing all over everything, including up one girl's skirt as she was talking to somebody else.
At this midsummer ritual, my friend had made a fantastic Herne costume for her brother, including a real antler headdress. Greg is 6' 4" tall, so he looked amazing in the outfit. We had him coming out of the woods at dusk, accompanied by flaming torches. It sent shivers down our spines, but other people complained that it frightened the children. The whole thing was never intended for children, for pete's sake!!! I just got so disillusioned in the end, and I haven't had any more to do with local pagans here for about 5 years. I just couldn't deal with the frustration and snobbery any more.
Raymond
Why do people insist on bring their bloody kids and dogs???
That's one thing I truly hate about pagans (apart from the smell) is they have to take their dogs to everything.
Yes I know they are your 'companion' and you want to enjoy the pagan exprience but they are dogs for f*ck sake, all they want to so is eat, sleep and fart.
Beany I think your exprience are even worse than mine. Tell them of the encounter you had with the Druids at Avebury. I think David will appreciate that one. I shouldn't laugh but I think it's funny.
I think that's the key here - keep a sense of humour. I know it can be terribly annoying when you put so much effort and work into organising something and then stupid people come along with their dogs and 'Linda McCartney Tofu Treats' and piss all over your parade but at least then you will learn of the kind of pagan you DON'T want to be.
Raymond
Stardust2, are you Gardinarian or Alexandrian?
I think they are the only traditions left that still work skyclad. You do realise this whole skyclad business was dreamed up by Gardner.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Gardner or being skyclad - that's why I ask if you're Gardnarian.
I know a lot of people who love working skyclad - indoors or out - and I have to be honest, when I work alone I do it myself but I've also met a lot of people who think you have to be skyclad otherwise it's not valid.
I always tell them if your mind is on your wobbly bits or your fat bits too much then it isn't on the work at hand.
I once met someone who had a leg ulcer and she had to wear a bandage the length of her leg. Her incredibly wise HPS (who, I might add, had a dreadful case of HPS syndrome) told her if she kept the bandage on she wouldn't be 'truly skyclad'.
The lady blunty told her that if she took the bandage off the smell of the ulcer would clear the bloody room, not to mention increase her risk of getting the ulcer infected.
The HPS told her she couldn't take part.
I've met witches and pagans in wheelchairs who have been told they can't take part because their chair means they aren't skyclad!
So it's better to be naked in a heap on the floor because you don't have the use of your legs rather than being in a wheelchair and at least takng part.
Where do these bloody people get off?
stardust2
Gardinarian and I agree about those bloody people.We do not do it becouse Gerald Gardner say we should. We do it becouse it feels right and natural.
I would not think that sitting in a wheel chair would make a differnce or wearing a bandage makes any differnce.We think that the trees and wildlife do not wear clothes so why should we.
Raymond
And that's fair enough. I suppose it's like most things in life, there are some who take the smallest thing to the extreme and have to feel as if they're 'doing it properly'.
When I first started off in the craft I was so obsessed with making sure everything was perfect. The altar had to be set up a certain way and heaven help anybody who accidentaly moved widdershins! I wouldn't even drink tea if somebody had stirred it anti-clockwise, LOL!
But you're right, at the end of the day it's more important to do what feels right than do what feels proper.
For me, I love the dressy-uppy. Wearing flowing robes and cloaks and horned crowns and flowers and jewellery makes me feel more of a witch and feels more 'right' than being starkers.
beantighe
You want me to relate the Druid story, Raymond? Well OK then. I suppose there is a funny side to it, really, although it wasn't funny at the time!
After my experiences with Wiccans (or pseudo ones) I gave them up for a bad job and hooked up for a while with a Druid Grove that had started up in the Plymouth area.
I got taken up to Avebury 2 Lammases ago. When we got there, my new companions promptly left me sitting with a table of strangers while they went on their various social rounds. Again the outsider, not knowing anyone, and not being able to join in the conversation, I twiddled my thumbs for several hours until it was announced that it was time for the Lammas ritual among the stones. We duly assembled there in a large circle, and I found it very hard to hear what was being said, because the voices were being carried away on the wind. Suddenly there was a great commotion, and one of their number limped into the circle bloodied, battered and bruised. The ritual fell to pieces while people crowded round to see what had happened. It turned out that this bloke and another had got into a fight over an argument that had been brewing all day about whether it was proper for ceremonial swords to be worn in Circle!
Eventually the ritual resumed, but all the atmosphere had gone, for me, and I don't think I stayed for the end. I sloped back off to the pub to wait for the others. I couldn't go anywhere, because I was several hours' drive away from home, and I had to wait for the others. It got to about 7 pm, and lo and behold, the fight kicked off again in the car park, and the same fellow got the worst of it again. This time he hobbled round to where we were all sitting outside, looking a fright, and there were children about who were very upset and scared by it all. So was I!
This was my first taste of Druid wars, and it didn't get any better, so I cut my losses and left that group too. *sigh*
evergreen
that's the kind of thing you'd expect at the footy
beantighe
Exactly! I was so disappointed to see the way some of them carried on. This local Druid group had a forum too, and the bitching seeped its way on there, as well. It wasn't just bitching, it was out and out stirring, telling one person one thing, and another person something quite the opposite, just to get people at each other's throats. Why on earth do they do this? I just can't understand it. All I wanted was to learn something about Druidry - I did that, all right, but all the wrong things!
Raymond
I really find that story quite shocking, but in a funny way. Actually coming to blows over whether or not a sword should be worn.
Get a f*cking grip people!!! LOL!!!
evergreen
I think you hit the nail on the head Raymond it is the serious way people just cant' get over themselves can they
david hobbs
beantighe wrote:
You want me to relate the Druid story, Raymond? Well OK then. I suppose there is a funny side to it, really, although it wasn't funny at the time!
After my experiences with Wiccans (or pseudo ones) I gave them up for a bad job and hooked up for a while with a Druid Grove that had started up in the Plymouth area.
I got taken up to Avebury 2 Lammases ago. When we got there, my new companions promptly left me sitting with a table of strangers while they went on their various social rounds. Again the outsider, not knowing anyone, and not being able to join in the conversation, I twiddled my thumbs for several hours until it was announced that it was time for the Lammas ritual among the stones. We duly assembled there in a large circle, and I found it very hard to hear what was being said, because the voices were being carried away on the wind. Suddenly there was a great commotion, and one of their number limped into the circle bloodied, battered and bruised. The ritual fell to pieces while people crowded round to see what had happened. It turned out that this bloke and another had got into a fight over an argument that had been brewing all day about whether it was proper for ceremonial swords to be worn in Circle!
Eventually the ritual resumed, but all the atmosphere had gone, for me, and I don't think I stayed for the end. I sloped back off to the pub to wait for the others. I couldn't go anywhere, because I was several hours' drive away from home, and I had to wait for the others. It got to about 7 pm, and lo and behold, the fight kicked off again in the car park, and the same fellow got the worst of it again. This time he hobbled round to where we were all sitting outside, looking a fright, and there were children about who were very upset and scared by it all. So was I!
This was my first taste of Druid wars, and it didn't get any better, so I cut my losses and left that group too. *sigh*
Oh I love this story because it takes all the pomposity out of the whole bloody ritual thing.
It shows that no matter what god or guru we choose to follow we are Oh so very human.
I asked earlier in a thread on nakedness where the spirituality was and again I ask it here.
Perhaps the fight was the spiritual part of it all and all of the nice huggy wuggy bits and the chanting and posing were just an act.
You cannot act these things they come from the heart and I am afraid that the world is full of wannabee wiccans and druids and Christians.
Wannabees that wanna belong to something instead of belonging to and discovering them selves and what they are.
I really shouldn't have strong coffee in the mornings.
beantighe
I feel the same too, David. I have often stood back and watched people posing, and then I've compared it with the way they behave and act, especially towards others. That's when you see how people really are.
Personally - and this is only my own feeling - I can't see what nakedness has to do with spirituality - you're either spiritual or you're not, it's a state of mind, and I defy anyone to feel spiritual when all you can think about is how bloody freezing you are, and what the hell are you doing prancing about in the nuddy anyway!
david hobbs
Well I have to be fair about this and state that a close friend of mine is a naturist. I used to pull his leg about it but the truth is he loved being naked in the open air.
I like skinny dipping if I get the chance and see no difference.
I think that being naked in the right circumstances is a great way of feeling closer to the elements and possibly getting in touch with your own body.
having said that, and this is only my opinion. I see no value in getting my kit off to perform a ritual. It is to me no different to having to put a robe on as was insisted upon by my coven and one of the reasons that I became disillusioned with it all.
What has dressing up or stripping off got to do with how you feel about what you are doing.
Raymond
I have my ritual robes and when I put them on it goes a little way to getting me in the right frame of mind.
I suppose it's like when the runner puts on his running shoes, the brain gets the body into gear and starts to prepare for hard work.
I also use music, incense and other items to get me in the right mood.
I don't think I could just rush home from work and go straight into ritual. I need to unwind, relax, have a shower, meditate - as far as I'm concerned all of that is part of the ritual itself.
stardust2
Oh dont get me wrong I love all the dressy up as well.Indoors and out doors in cold weather.We never go skyclad indoors.
david hobbs
Yes lot's of interesting talk but....
What does it do to you?
How do you feel?
Raymond says it gets him in the mood which tells me that his beliefs do not run through to his everyday life and give his everyday life the meaning for which I feel we are all searching because if his beliefs did he would be in the mood all of the time. Yes there would be highs and lows but from a different perspective.
Surely any religion, and that is what it is, is about life and living it in a balanced and rewarding way and spiritual way.
I see none of that in what anyone has written on this thread, only escapism. Escaping from the drudgery of everyday life.
Am I right or am I wrong?
Raymond
I think you're right AND wrong. I do live my craft every minute of everyday in as much as I see the work of the gods all the time and even thank the gods whenever I see their work but when I'm going into circle I want that experience to be different, I want to feel different and be seperate from everything else.
I suppose it is a form of escapism but not because I see my everyday life as 'drudgery' and any witch whose life is drudgery, in my opinion, probably isn't a very good witch because the whole point of learning the craft is to imrove your life and as far as I am concerned witches (on the most part) do lead a blessed life.
But I wouldn't want to be in the same frame of mind when approaching ritual as when I'm walking around the supermarket.
What would be the point of doing any religion or way or life if it made you feel the same way as mundane tasks?
beantighe
I understand what you're saying there, Raymond.
I've always understood it to be important to be in a relaxed state of mind before a ritual, and like you, I believe the winding down, the purification of a bath or shower, and putting on special robes all help you to get into the right frame of altered consciousness which is actually part of the ritual itself. When you go into circle, you step over the threshold and leave the mundane world behind, so you are, in effect, 'between the worlds'. I think you have to be totally comfortable physically and mentally, whether you choose to work skyclad or robed, because if you're not, it will destroy your concentration and the whole rite or ritual would be a complete waste of time.
It's true that pagan spirituality colours the way we live our lives from day to day, but we don't spend every waking minute in the altered mental state we strive for in circle, when worshipping, doing magic, or just celebrating, because if we did, we really would be away with the fairies!
david hobbs
Well OK the pair of you and you know that I am being devils advocate here but for a reason.
I am after the central core of witches and their motivation. In what way does a being a witch change the person. Is it a religion? Is it a spiritual journey? does it fulfil a need in you and do you NEED to be a witch.
But most of all does what you do give meaning to your lives, and meanings that help you to help others, not for reasons of ego but simply because like you they are also human beings.
In other words is it a spiritual journey you are on and have you perhaps lost sight of that along the way.
If you were born a witch was it for your benefit or perhaps for another reason?
beantighe
Interesting questions, David. I shall have to go away and think about it.
As I've explained previously, I've been alone craft-wise for many years, preferring my own company now because of the stress I've encountered in the past, so when it comes to ritual practise, I'm very rusty. Also my husband isn't pagan, and although he's very laid-back about my ways, I don't like to push it under his nose, out of respect, so privacy is a slight problem for me.
However, I've seen things through Pagan eyes virtually all my life, even before I knew what a pagan was, or indeed that there were any other people on this planet who were like me. I always felt different, not one of the herd, and I think my contemporaries and peers sensed this, and the way I put it, it was like being a budgie in a flock of sparrows - a misfit, if you like.
I may not physically or practically be able to 'do' very much, but my spirituality is very much nature-centred - it always gives me this frisson of awe and wonder whenever I'm in amongst it, alone in the woods, for example, which was where I did my most life-changing and important philosophising when I was about 13. I was having battles with my mother at the time about going to church - she expected me to be confirmed, and I most definitely didn't want to, and for this I was condemned by her and called a 'heathen'. I used to wonder why she thought I was such a bad person, and what I had done to deserve it.
I've always tried to do my best in life and avoid hurting others if at all possible, and to do good whenever the opportunity presents itself without looking for or expecting any reward, not because it's an ego thing, but because I feel it's the right thing to do. I don't know how else to explain it.
Now what was the question?
Raymond
I am also going to think about my answer before I give it.
Raymond
I've thought about this one and to be honest I really can't come up with a satisfactory answer.
Over the years, for one reason or another, I've tried turning my back on the craft and sooner or later I always seem to find my way back into it.
Trying to live without the craft, for me, would being like suddenly trying to write with the other hand - it can be done but would feel clumsy and awkward.
It just feels right.
I certainly don't think I'm on some kind of uber spiritual quest as I don't necessarily see the craft as a spiritual jourmey. It can be and for a lot of people it is but not the way I practice it. My craft is very 'earthy' and I use it to improve my earthly life and rarely do I use it to improve my spiritual life (whatever that is).
I also don't feel a great need to help other people - and that really is as selfish as it sounds.
If I can help others along the way then of course I will, so long as helping them doesn't get in my way.
I really don't know why I follow the craft. The best answer I can give ( or the best you're going to get) is because it just feels right.
david hobbs
One small question
Do you involve the Goddess or any gods in your work?
Raymond
I do at the seasonal festivals but it's more out of habit than amything else.
I am a recovering Gardnarian y'know! (No offence Stardust!)
I know it's a very 'wiccan' thing and I always claim not to be a wiccan but I do actually accept the whole God/Goddess concept - again, it just makes sense to me.
I wouldn't consider myself as 'religious', I have met many witches/pagans who do take the religious side of the craft very, very seriously - and good luck to them - but that wouldn't suit me at all.
david hobbs
I will have to think because I am now confused.
Perhaps Beeny has something more to say on the subject.
Raymond
What are you confused about old thing?
david hobbs
Let you know when I get over the confusion. Off to get dinner now.
Have you ever felt the presence of the Goddess?
beantighe
I'm absolutely gutted!!! I've just spent over an hour replying in detail to your question, and when I pressed Submit, the ruddy thing had logged me out and I've lost the lot! It's late now, and I'm too tired to try and remember it all and write it all again.
Raymond
david hobbs wrote:
Have you ever felt the presence of the Goddess?
Oh yes, several times and to varying degrees. The first time was my true intitiation into the craft as far as I'm concerned.
david hobbs
Then perhaps that feeling is what is missing from your life.
Witchcraft is one thing, and spirituality is another. Please do not confuse religion with spirituality. Religion is a set of man made rules to keep you in line and enslave you. Spirituality is looking at the night sky and feeling that overwhelming sense of wonder and awe at the beauty of it all and feeling at one with the one.
One is a way of life. The other is your very reason for living.
Lose sight of that and you are lost on the path as are all of us who have forgotton that our souls need feeding just as much as our bellys.
david hobbs
beantighe wrote:
Interesting questions, David. I shall have to go away and think about it.
As I've explained previously, I've been alone craft-wise for many years, preferring my own company now because of the stress I've encountered in the past, so when it comes to ritual practise, I'm very rusty. Also my husband isn't pagan, and although he's very laid-back about my ways, I don't like to push it under his nose, out of respect, so privacy is a slight problem for me.
However, I've seen things through Pagan eyes virtually all my life, even before I knew what a pagan was, or indeed that there were any other people on this planet who were like me. I always felt different, not one of the herd, and I think my contemporaries and peers sensed this, and the way I put it, it was like being a budgie in a flock of sparrows - a misfit, if you like.
I may not physically or practically be able to 'do' very much, but my spirituality is very much nature-centred - it always gives me this frisson of awe and wonder whenever I'm in amongst it, alone in the woods, for example, which was where I did my most life-changing and important philosophising when I was about 13. I was having battles with my mother at the time about going to church - she expected me to be confirmed, and I most definitely didn't want to, and for this I was condemned by her and called a 'heathen'. I used to wonder why she thought I was such a bad person, and what I had done to deserve it.
I've always tried to do my best in life and avoid hurting others if at all possible, and to do good whenever the opportunity presents itself without looking for or expecting any reward, not because it's an ego thing, but because I feel it's the right thing to do. I don't know how else to explain it.
Now what was the question?
Well there were a few questions but I suppose the main one is this.
Do you see what you do as a spiritual journey?
Raymond
david hobbs wrote:
Then perhaps that feeling is what is missing from your life.
Who said i had anything missing?
david hobbs
Not missing perhaps that was a bad choice of words but in another thread you did mention that you felt a little stuck at the moment.
Sometimes we remember the sense of wonder we had at things that happened in life when all this was new to us. When that sense of wonder goes we look for it and if we do not find it then we feel restless and stuck.
The "we" doesn't mean you and I Raymond but more a general feeling that I have about things.
We need to feel a sense of purpose and dare I say it a sense of the miraculous otherwise why do we do what we do?
To me, without the possibility of miracles, then life is just a grey bare thing and not for me.
I also try to see, not always with any success, the wonder in the things around me or else what are they other than just things.
Yes I am in a funny mood because recently things have happened to make me look again at what I do so you poor Raymond are my sounding board.
beantighe
David wrote:
Well there were a few questions but I suppose the main one is this.
Do you see what you do as a spiritual journey?
Well now the difference between religion and spirituality has been clarified, I find it a lot easier to answer.
I've never been religious, because as Raymond said, it's just a set of rigid, man-made rules, and for me that includes Wicca too. It's too much like the Catholic church with its hierarchy and dogma.
I need to be a free spirit, and anything which tries to shackle me with thou shalts and thou shalt nots is akin to a spiritual straitjacket and is stifling.
I do believe I have been spiritual all my life, and the world of nature has always been its source. I can gaze at the night sky, like you said, and be overwhelmed at the wonder, vastness and eternity of it all. It sets my mind wandering down pathways of its own. It makes me feel alive, even though I am the merest speck in the great scheme of things. Sometimes it is this feeling of awe and reverence that drives me to spiritual acts, like greeting a beautiful Full Moon as Mother. I do think of Goddess and God at times like this, and I address them as archetypal Parents. I love the fact that I can do this, without having to resort to a priest of any sort to mediate for me - the relationship is immediate and personal. I could no more turn my back on it than I could cut my own hand off.
Does this answer your question?
david hobbs
Yes Beany.
You know what you are and where you are.
I find that so refreshing.
Think I might be in love
Don't tell Magi
Raymond
Oh he's off again!
beantighe
I'll tell you what is refreshing - being able to have discussions like these! If I had to read any more milk and water girly chit chat, I think I might as well have slit my throat and have done!
evergreen
I have embraced women these last few years..... and I have found something I never thought that I would the women I have drawn into my life usually like to get to the heart of the matter the water and milk girly chit chat is nothing to do with begin female it has everything to do with commercialism and keeping up appearances which I'm afraid men so just as eagerly
geez.. I am be turning
beantighe
I was just referring to other forums I've been on recently where the minute you give an opinion on an in-depth, serious subject, you get abused and personally attacked, so that people avoid contentious subjects altogether and stick only to bland chit chat out of fear of these personal attacks. Ask Raymond! That's why he invited me here. - Oh, and the majority of people on these other forums were female. I wasn't generalising about all women, just the ones on the forums I've escaped from.
evergreen
yes I totally agree with that... its refreshing isn't it
Taz
beantighe wrote:
I was just referring to other forums I've been on recently where the minute you give an opinion on an in-depth, serious subject, you get abused and personally attacked, so that people avoid contentious subjects altogether and stick only to bland chit chat out of fear of these personal attacks. Ask Raymond! That's why he invited me here. - Oh, and the majority of people on these other forums were female. I wasn't generalising about all women, just the ones on the forums I've escaped from.
I agree but I think it's a bit of a pack mentatlity in some cases, especially regarding the particular forum you are referring to Beantighe. There was an unpleasant under current going on there and debate was ok as long as everyone agreed and didn't offer an alternative opinion.......
beantighe
Yes, that's right, Taz. (haven't seen you about for a few days, you OK hon?)
It did take me aback quite severely, the way they all reacted together, just like a pack, as you say. And I didn't like the way the talk in the virtual 'pub' was going, either - a bit seedy, to say the least.
david hobbs
Just mention that perhaps sky clad covens allow dirty old men to look at girls bits and people vanish into the wide blue yonder.
Guess I was right then because I would be the first one to have a good look and I don't mind admitting it.
What is more beautiful than a beautiful womans body.
beantighe
Good job you haven't seen mine, then! It's staying under wraps for good!
Mind you, it has seen better days, lol!
Raymond
david hobbs wrote:
What is more beautiful than a beautiful womans body.
I told him where to get off in no uncertain terms! 
