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david hobbs

Kas

In in my last case write up I mentioned that one of the people I was working with was being scratched by an invisible something.  These scratches were appearing all over his body as we sat as a table in full light.

As a sceptic what do you make of it?
Kas

From a Skeptical point of view I would suggest that they were self inflicted.
It's very easy to scratch an itch unconsciously. Sometimes when you do this a red mark will appear later.
It happens especially if you have dry skin during cold weather.
Sometimes you can demonstate this by simply stratching the back of your hand. The scratching action slowly draws the blood to the surface of the skin producing a red mark.
Woman are much more likely to experience this as their skin tends to be more sensitive.

So it could be possible that he scratched himself without realizing he had and then possibly due to a combination of entering a warm room from the cold etc, later noticed the red marks.

It's possible reason and what a skeptical view would suggest.
Bravo

Re: Kas

david hobbs wrote:
These scratches were appearing all over his body as we sat as a table in full light.


Why did you completely ignore this?  The premise was that they were appearing in front of them, yet your theory was that he was scratching unconsciously?

Or does the sceptical viewpoint suggest that you can scratch something, which then lays for hours without showing a mark, then suddenly appearing under light?

I'm more logical, and it is in this type of total blind dismissal that 'sceptics' make themselves look ridiculous.
Kas

Re: Kas

Bravo wrote:
david hobbs wrote:
These scratches were appearing all over his body as we sat as a table in full light.


Why did you completely ignore this?  The premise was that they were appearing in front of them, yet your theory was that he was scratching unconsciously?

Or does the sceptical viewpoint suggest that you can scratch something, which then lays for hours without showing a mark, then suddenly appearing under light?

I'm more logical, and it is in this type of total blind dismissal that 'sceptics' make themselves look ridiculous.


Chill out. I gave a view point that in my opinion a skeptic would conclude, as asked by David.
It was an opinion given on the amount of information supplied. If not asked I wouldn't have suggested a reason, simply because I was not present and I don't know all the facts.

Quote:
Why did you completely ignore this?  The premise was that they were appearing in front of them, yet your theory was that he was scratching unconsciously?


Maybe I didn't explain it clearly. What I meant was for all we know he may have scratched several times before hand unconsciously and then some minutes later in front of the others the marks appeared.
It's a possiblilty that you can't rule out.

The only person who could shed more light on it is the subject.
Does he have sensitive skin, does he have allergies, how was he feeling?
For all we know he fell in a bloody bush getting out the car?

I think your a fool to presume anything to be paranormal without finding and researching all the possibilities first.
Kas

A simple google search discovered the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatographic_urticaria

Maybe this was the cause?
Bravo

That's more like it.
david hobbs

Well the thing is that the we were at the table for quite while when the scratches began to appear.

Coincidently one of the problems the house holders were having was with scratches appearing in various place where they should not be all over the house.

I was sceptical about these myself as anything can get scratched by accidents but the person being scratched before my very eyes so to speak was not an idiot and would know if the scratches had been caused by himself or from falling over etc.

Seeing the thing from a sceptics point of view makes me realise that nothing in the paranormal is ever going to be proved.
Bravo

Has this person tried seeing a doctor with this condition?
Kas

What were the scratches like David?

Just red marks or were they raised? Was there any blood?

I hope you understand where I was coming from with my suggestion?
You have to rule these things out. I haven't got particularly sensative skin but for instance, if i've been gardening during the day, quite often scratches will appear on my hands and arms in the evening. I've put this down to (a) coming into the warm for the cold and (b) reactions to certain plant thorns etc.
Mel's skin is very sensitive. I can press her arm and minutes later a red mark will appear that lasts for hours.
We also have the take into account that our skin is always changing.
Due to diet, climate and of course age.

A worrying fact whilst searching the net for any information on this was the amount of people on forums telling stories of them waking up covered in scratches. In almost every forum instead of questioning if the subject had scratched themselves in their sleep? They were immediately diagnosed with having the presence of a demon and told to seek urgent religious help. Some were even children.

Looking specifically at the families experience with the scratches.
And i'm sorry but I have to ask, was the house clean? Do they have pets? In your opinion could there be any lice or similiar in parts of the house.
Also was the house particularly warm? The air dry?

Sorry, i know that's not the sort of thing you would probably notice on a short visit.
david hobbs

There is no condition Bravo.

It was one of our team so it doesn't take a lot of working out who it was.

No doubt he would tell you himself.

He is a forum member.
Kas

Hopefully he will tell us more.


Nothing to do with this story but this reminded me of something. A joke we used to play in pubs. It's also a good example of suggestion.
Next time your in a pub buying a drink. Start scratching yourself (not balls Raymond). Scratch your chest and then your neck as you talk to the barmaid. Don't bring attention to what your doing just do it as if you don't realise. Before you know it the barmaid will be scratching too.
Or just accuse you of having fleas and tell you to get out.
david hobbs

Kas wrote:
What were the scratches like David?

Just red marks or were they raised? Was there any blood?

I hope you understand where I was coming from with my suggestion?
You have to rule these things out. I haven't got particularly sensitive skin but for instance, if I've been gardening during the day, quite often scratches will appear on my hands and arms in the evening. I've put this down to (a) coming into the warm for the cold and (b) reactions to certain plant thorns etc.
Mel's skin is very sensitive. I can press her arm and minutes later a red mark will appear that lasts for hours.
We also have the take into account that our skin is always changing.
Due to diet, climate and of course age.

A worrying fact whilst searching the net for any information on this was the amount of people on forums telling stories of them waking up covered in scratches. In almost every forum instead of questioning if the subject had scratched themselves in their sleep? They were immediately diagnosed with having the presence of a demon and told to seek urgent religious help. Some were even children.

Looking specifically at the families experience with the scratches.
And I'm sorry but I have to ask, was the house clean? Do they have pets? In your opinion could there be any lice or similar in parts of the house.
Also was the house particularly warm? The air dry?

Sorry, i know that's not the sort of thing you would probably notice on a short visit.


The scratches were thin and red I didn't see any blood.  He said that as we were speaking he could feel himself being scratched.  When we had a look he had long red scratches on his back and forehead and shoulder and hands.  He may have had more but I think he was against taking his cloths off in someones house.  The house was spotless.  No pets.  I have no idea of the humidity.  The husband was a GP and psychiatrist.

I am not trying to prove or disprove anything as it is of no consequence to me.  I just go along and try to sort things out.  It is just interesting to see things from another point of view.

Having checked your list of possibilities I am now surer than ever that these marks are not explainable by any normal means and that is of value to me.
Kas

Hmmm, it is interesting, especially regarding the owners occupation.

So, just say for arguements sake the scratches were made by some paranormal force.
Why?
david hobbs

That is like asking is there a God.

I am a human being and therefore unable to answer those questions.

To me the question is,  how can I stop this happening to these people?

Why is a question for philosophers and scientists.
Kas

Ok excuse me for playing devils advocate now.

Surely to help you need to know why?
david hobbs

Kas wrote:
Ok excuse me for playing devils advocate now.

Surely to help you need to know why?


And that is where you are wrong.

It helps most of the time to know why, but that help is for my thinking mind it always needs feeding.

I try after an mental assesment to feel rather than think if I think that something may be happening and it is not just a waste of my time and energy.

Then I see how it goes, and see if I need to think anymore or not.
Raymond

Never assume the paranormal until you have completely ruled out the normal.

Ok, I have some questions I'd like answered.

Where were the scratches on the body?

Did they look more like 'nail' scratches or 'claw' scratches?

Were they in odd places? i.e. on the back, legs, under clothing?

Did they go down quickly or were they visable for a quite some time?

Was the person left alone for any length of time?








Oh, and Kas. The kind of pubs I visit keep the lights off.
Kas

Quote:
Oh, and Kas. The kind of pubs I visit keep the lights off.


Well every little helps.    

I am drawn to the statement that scratches were observed on the back.
Within reach of the afflicted? If not that would be more interesting.

I am also interested in why the person in question has so far not posted his version of events.
mark

ok i only  just saw this post,i dont  no how the scratches occures or why
i have had  similar  scratches appear before ,once on the face  a shire hall  in chelmsford  and another time in a different place on my body .i could  when out with dave and anne at the recent location feel a scratch feeling and warmth at the  same time with i think 2 of the scratches,and felt this  and when this happened i think dave saw them  at the same time ,i didnt feel any energies around us at at the time  it happened and i dont  no why  this happened,and i wish it hadnt as the owners  saw this and its the last thing they needed really.at the time i was relaxed and not knowingly bothered by anything ,which may be relevant ,i do remember once  going to the dentist and being really scared  and feeling the same warmth  and feeling of being scratched,and when i looked in the  mirror a hour or so later there was nothing  on my face ,but as i said i wasnt bothered  or scared at this house  so i really do not no what happened  or why ,the  scratches did go after a day or so ,hope this helps
Kas

Thanks for posting Mark.
david hobbs

Raymond wrote:
Never assume the paranormal until you have completely ruled out the normal.

Ok, I have some questions I'd like answered.

Where were the scratches on the body?

Did they look more like 'nail' scratches or 'claw' scratches?

Were they in odd places? i.e. on the back, legs, under clothing?

Did they go down quickly or were they visable for a quite some time?

Was the person left alone for any length of time?








Oh, and Kas. The kind of pubs I visit keep the lights off.


FM Raymond read the posts mate.
Raymond

I was just trying to show a little interest in a thread I have very little interest in.

Uh, you try and be nice...
david hobbs

Raymond wrote:
Never assume the paranormal until you have completely ruled out the normal.

Ok, I have some questions I'd like answered.

Where were the scratches on the body?

Forehead hands back

Did they look more like 'nail' scratches or 'claw' scratches?

Claw scratches

Were they in odd places? i.e. on the back, legs, under clothing?

Yes mostly

Did they go down quickly or were they visable for a quite some time?

They took about a day to go

Was the person left alone for any length of time?

No








Oh, and Kas. The kind of pubs I visit keep the lights off.
david hobbs

Having pondered on it I have a couple of ideas on how this happened.

A very capable majician conjured up a demon type entity which hung around the place and was strong enough to cause physical effects.

We have all heard of stigmata so possibly because of the scratches seen all over the place Mark somehow created them himself through the power of his own mind.

Mark may have fallen in a rose bush and forgotten about it.
Raymond

You make no sense.
david hobbs

I was being a bit tongue in cheek but what is your theory?
Raymond

Well I think you'd have to be a pretty big numpty to forget falling into a rose bush - unless it's something you do on a regular basis, so I think we can rule that one out.

I asked questions and they were poo-pooed, the most important one being were they fingernail marks or claw marks?

Until those questions are answered I couldn't possibly comment.
david hobbs

Raymond wrote:
Well I think you'd have to be a pretty big numpty to forget falling into a rose bush - unless it's something you do on a regular basis, so I think we can rule that one out.

I asked questions and they were poo-pooed, the most important one being were they fingernail marks or claw marks?

Until those questions are answered I couldn't possibly comment.


Ray I answered them in the above posts.

Take a look about four posts away.
Raymond

Right, well the fact they looked like animal claw marks makes it suddenly very interesting.
People simply cannot replicate claw marks with their own fingernails.

Did these scratches follow a pattern or were they random?

I take it nobody photographed them in the 24 hours they took to fade away?
david hobbs

Raymond wrote:
Right, well the fact they looked like animal claw marks makes it suddenly very interesting.
People simply cannot replicate claw marks with their own fingernails.

Did these scratches follow a pattern or were they random?

I take it nobody photographed them in the 24 hours they took to fade away?


I did with my mobile but they didn't come out

The scratches were random
Raymond

Always take a proper camera. Always, always, always!

In that case they could very well be a physical manifestation of psychic energy.
Unless they occur on the same person in different circumstances and then we could be talking about spirit attachment.
david hobbs

Well I think you can rule out spirit attachment.

We would know if it were a "spirit".

This story would be totally unacceptable to a sceptic and who could blame them.

But then being there is much better than being a bar room expert as so many sceptics seem to be.

I suppose I am quite used to seeing such things so I don't really care what others who were not there think.  Having said that we all learn from each other so a sceptic is as good a source of knowledge as anyone else.

But it makes for conversation without which this forum would die like so many before it.

Raymond can you tell us a bit about the manifestation of psychic energy.
Raymond

Psychic energy, magickal energy - call it what you will. It's the energy that is formed by the mind of a person who manipulates energy into a tangible form, more commonly known as a Witch, Magickian, Sorcerer etc..
Usually psychic energy is formed to manifest itself to affect a particular outcome, in simple terms the energy is used to bring about the change of a circumstance either one way or the other, more commonly known as a spell, curse, hex etc...
Psychic energy can also be used to create physical manifestation. This can cause physical objects to move under their own esteem, lights turning on and off, doors opening and closing, etc..
This kind of activity is often mistaken for spiritual activity (hauntings) but is energy that has been given form by the Witch, Magickian, Sorcerer, whatever, to perform a specific task.
This kind of thing is rare because these entities are difficult to control and often take on a life of their own independantly of the Magickian.
It is entirely possible for one of these entites to cause scratch marks on a person's body, in fact, they would find that rather simple.
Lilly

david hobbs wrote:
Having pondered on it I have a couple of ideas on how this happened.

A very capable majician conjured up a demon type entity which hung around the place and was strong enough to cause physical effects.

We have all heard of stigmata so possibly because of the scratches seen all over the place Mark somehow created them himself through the power of his own mind.

Mark may have fallen in a rose bush and forgotten about it.

   ****************************************
Possibly he laid a carpet made of wool that day????

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