Just a little livener...

Raymond · Just a little livener...

This debate section has been a bit tired of late and is in danger of becoming a tad insignificant.
So I thought I would introduce a few meaty topics for us to get our teeth into to shake things up a bit.

I thought a good place to start would be with Vivisection. I'm sure it's a subject that would prove quite difficult to be indifferent about.

My tuppenceworth on this one is I am completely against animal testing when it comes to cosmetic products.
I don't see the point of squirting shampoo into a mouse's eye just to find out whether or not it's going to sting. Mice don't use shampoo after all.
I always make sure all cosmetic products and toiletries I buy haven't been tested on animals.

However when it comes to medicinal testing I don't have so much of a problem.
I do think a lot of the medicinal testing that is carried out is excessive and animal testing in this way should be kept to an absolute minimum and I also think more money should be invested in ways of testing products without the use of live animals - maybe growing their skin in a lab and testing on that for example, but then if they could successfully grow living skin why not grow human skin and test on that?

The fact is, vivisection in the medicinal sense produces results. Many people (and animals) are living healthier, pain free lives thanks to results discovered after use of animals in testing.

It's a fact that a lot of the medical procedures will still use today were a direct result from Nazi experimentation on Jews in WWII, but should be stop using those procedures just because they were discovered in such an horrendous way?

The same is true of vivisection. Much of the medicine we all use today to give us relief from our ills was discovered as a direct result from animal testing.

Hopefully one day it will become a thing of the past , but for the time being I believe it's a necessary evil.

david hobbs

To my shame this is a subject that I have never really tried to work out how I feel about it.

For instance, would I like the idea of one of my pets being used in a painful experiment?

Is human life more precious than the life of an animal?

Are some animals, rats for instance, regarded as lesser animals and OK to inflict pain on whereas fluffy kittens are taboo?

That's just for starters.

So now I need to think about it.

Raymond

You think away Mr. Hobbs.

evergreen

I buy products that arent' tested on animals

Yet I too hold the view that medications need to be tested somehow... it is a moral problem why should we use animals for things like that but then I also eat meat so I dont' think I am in any place to judge

david hobbs

All life depends on absorbing other life forms in order to survive, well OK there may be exceptions but you know what I mean.

So eating what was once a living creature is the norm.

Should we use animals to make our lives more comfortable?

We always have from the time we started dressing in skins.

Here's the but. But to me there is something sinister about keeping animals in a laboratory and doing all kinds of unmentionable things to them.

Perhaps I have seen to many Hollywood B films.

Anyway my mum always told me not to play with my food.

Raymond

Just to throw another newt into the cauldron; if you think animals SHOULDN'T be used for experimentation, what might you suggest are the alternatives?

david hobbs

Let's assume that I am against it, I don't really know if I am though.

OK. These experiments are for the benefit of human beings so let's experiment on them.

I have heard people on the radio telling of how the knowledge gained in animal experiments saved their lives so why not ask them if they will volunteer for experimental research.

Know what, they might be grateful but not grateful enough to offer their own bodies.

Let the scientists run tests on themselves after all they do love the idea of winning a nobel prize, so how much is ego and how much is a desire to help mankind (that's a no brainer) and also the people who supply these animals to the laboratories. They obviously see it as a harmless pursuit and a way of gaining money.

Next thing is someone asking me if I would allow an animal to be experimented on in order to save my life, or that of a child.

My uncle always used to say that if birds had guns it would even up the playing field with the hunters.

Raymond

The problem with that Mr. Hobbs is numbers. Some would say that prisoners should be used and maybe have their sentences reduced as they have served society.
I don't know about that one but these experients aren't just carried out on one or two lab rats, in order for a product to be deemed safe it's tested on literally thousands.

You would need an awful lot of humans willing to be tested on for the products to pass all the tests.

david hobbs

And let's not forget the fact that drug companies lie, or should I say massage the test results.

So many drugs have been found to be harmful to humans in the past.

Thing is that humans are already the medium used for testing drugs.

Drugs are prescribed by doctors on the say so of drug companies.

You and I are already the laboratory rats.

Also a rat is not a human being.

No, sorry ratty it's a fact but on the upside however for you rats a human being is not a rat.

Result for rats wouldn't you say.

evergreen

Good grief I couldn't say it is right to test on humans at all.... ever ! makes us very a nasty lot

I thik with meds and I'm sorry to all the lovely little rabbits out there but animals are the only thing I could agree to...

unless we could somehow grow human tissue and test on that- hang on that involves genetic work that many don't agree with either

Is there a way to win ???

Raymond

I could suggest many council estates near where I live where they could test various forms of birth control.

Waffle King

What ever way you look at it, there is no right and there is no wrong.

Testing on animals, frowned upon, testing on humans, frowned upon, there is no alternative, other then as EG has said, genetic manipulation, oh but yes, thats not here nor there either, so you know what i say? the mighty waffle of the waffle? Throw all the drugs in the bin and stop tampering with the human biological structure :D

I never take prescription pills, i spent a week with a headache because i refuse to, when i sprained my ankle a few weeks ago, i was in roaring pain, but i didn't take anything.

So i can only put myself in one spot, and thats in the 'No Corner' i don't believe any of it is morally right, human testing, animal testing or anything else.

95% of the time the body will heal itself

Raymond

I agree that people rely far too heavily on synthetic medicine, especially when it comes to things like headaches and sprains - there are so many natural alternatives which work just as well anyway.

However it does have it's place. When I was 14 I had pnumonia and because of it at least twice a year I get a terrible chest infection that literally puts me on my back. Thanks the gods for antibiotics that's all I can say.

As for the body healing itself 95% of the time, I'm not so sure about that. The human body is actually a very fragile thing and when it's unwell or injured it will leave lasting damage if the illness or injury isn't treated properly.

I'm not the sort of person who will 'suffer in silence'. When I'm unwell or injured I will take anything to get me back on my feet again, but I always try to do the best I can to combine modern medicine with natural treatments.

billy nomates

i can think of 600 odd useless twats im westminster that could be used for experimentation! Big Grin

the problem with all this is that most of these acts are performed just to make money!!!!!the smokescreen is'we're doing it to help people'.........

Glaxo has just been up to some nasty stuff........
http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/1750553/

strangely there are a lot of people in argentina with german names

david hobbs

Billy.

You are a ruddy genius at digging the dirt which to a born again gossip like me is a god send.

The article tells all really.

We are the laboratory rats and always have been.

This is a scandal on a global scale but rarely disscused in the media.

Now I wonder why?

Er money?

Er power?

Nah can't be

Raymond

Or could it be that it's happening in a country that nobody really gives a crap about?

david hobbs

Of course Raymond.

Big boys bully little boys, and big boys sometimes abuse little boys.

Not the best analogy but I think it will do.

In this world we have the have's and the have not's.

This system lends itself to abuse. Nothing you can do about it even if you wanted too, but it highlights what the powerful international companies are like beautifully.

The thing is that I'm all right Jack and sod the rest of you.

Raymond

Ahhh, but that's life I'm afraid Mr. Hobbs, so what can we do? As far as I can see we have two options.
1) Drop out of it all and go and set up camp in some new age commune somewhere.
2) Make sure we are one of the 'haves'.

I'll leave it with you.

billy nomates

thanks dave! Big Grin

crowley said somethin like an adept has to be sickened by the whole edifice before he can see through the whole charade. i will posT quote when i can remember which liber it was in............

i guess my eyes are wide open............

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING DOESNT MEAN IT IS TRUE!!!

HOW DUMB ARE HUMANS? WE ALL THINK WE ARE THE DOGS YET WE ARE DUPED EVERY DAY.........

david hobbs