Here is a very interesting link

david hobbs · Here is a very interesting link

Houdini investigates a trance medium

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QKdYxO63E58

Kas

Good find.
So how come no one see's ectoplasm anymore?

david hobbs

Spirit Realm

Do they still use that word etcoplasm? I see spirit energy sometimes but that is me. LOL.

evergreen

I think spirit energy is a different thing .. I could be wrong though

Houdini wasn't a skeptic he was a real non believer...

it seems to me the issue is not the fact that this can occur but the idea that is always has to be in the pitch dark... why is this so? Why not even a candle

david hobbs

Kas

Raymond

Even though I am a total beleiver I agree with the sceptics on one thing. If you can do a certain thing then you should be able to do it in broad daylight as well as in the pitch dark.
Darkness hides secrets and I will never be totally comfortable with physical mediumship until I see a demonstration of it in full light.

Voice contact mediumship is a form of physical mediumship and even then I have never seen a demonstration where I haven't left feeling unsure.

A few years ago I was invited to a demonstration of voice contact at the SAGB.
The Medium was said to be one of the best voice contacts Mediums in Britain. How could I not go?

There were only about 20 of us there and the Medium spent the first hour telling us about voice contact before he actually did anything.

When he was ready to start working he sat in a cupboard with a red light shining on him and all other lights off.

After a few grunts and groans an array of various characters cam through to impart their knowledge one of whom was none other than Sir Arthur Conan Doyle himself!

All this went on for about an hour when eventually a Chinese man came through. The crowd started to get a little excited about this so I asked the old lady next to me why.
She explained that the Chinese man was the Medium's guide and he always invited questions from the audience.

People started asking questions, What is it like when you die? What is the afterlife like? Had he met Elvis? The usual crap.

So I put my had up and he pointed to me and said "Yes, my child"
My child? Patronising git!

So I asked him if he would speak some Chinese for me. All heads turned to look at me.
The Medium hesitated for a moment and then said "Why would you want me to speak Chinese? If I spoke in my native tongue you wouldn't understand what it was I was saying to you".

How did he know I didn't speak Chinese?

Not to be outdone I ploughed on.

"I know Chinese when I hear it" I said "So I'd know you were speaking Chinese if you said something".

He went on to explain that the vibration that had been raised for him to come through on was only sufficent for him to speak in English. To speak in another language would require a completely different energy.

I wasn't finished with him yet.

"So when you were in the physical" I said "What form of Chinese did you speak, Madarin or Cantonese?"

He laughed me off finding it a little odd I seemed so intersted in his personal history rather than asking him bigger 'spiritual' questions.

I had no more questions.

Afterwards over a cup of tea a woman (who I think was as sceptical as I was) asked me what I thought of the demonstration.

"I think he's very good at voices and accents" I replied "He could make a good career out of that".

Unknown to me the Medium was standing only 3 feet behind.

Needless to say that evening was the begining of the end of my relationship with the SAGB.

evergreen

Raymond

It's something to do with photosynthe....something.

The same reason they use red lights in photgraphic darkrooms.

david hobbs

Raymond

I know the answer I just can't think of the right words.

Light can be damaging to certain materials (ectoplasm being one, apparently) but a red light doesn't cause harm for some reason.

You're right. We need a trance Medium.

david hobbs

I will try to get Lilly on.

She will know.

Raymond

I think her loyalties lie with Her Majesty.

david hobbs

I shall PM her.

She will tell me.

Lovely lady.

Raymond

Ask her why she doesn't post on here anymore.

I'm telling you, she doesn't want to upset Queen Wendy.

Spirit Realm

My GrandMother used to work with a Trance Medium whom is not well known but he always worked with the lights on he wanted people to spot fakes. He was one of the few I have heard of during the fifties and sixties whom did work with the lights on. I am all for a skeptic to put my gift to the test just to see if I really am nuts. LOL. Seriously to challenge myself through anothers eyes helps me to grow as a person.

david hobbs

That is interesting.

Was the trance medium doing physical mediumship or channelling?

When I read your posts Spirit Realm the words could almost have come from Meiah on this forum.

Same vibe.

david hobbs

Here is Lillys reply.

This is from a lady who's mother saw the original photos

Quote

Could you let me know in what way the photo's were altered?

Cheers

One of the more obvious photos that were altered to bring disrepute to Helen,was one entitled 'Peggy' taken by the well known 'ghostbuster' Harry Price. He was the one who tested Helen at her seances,and his reports and my Mum and Dads do not tally. He was the Jondonnis of his day!
Funny I should mention the Cottingley fairies...I caught the end of the antiques road show yesterday,and a relative of the girls had the original untouched photo,which I have seen myself.
I will send you a link to a website about Helen ,I would send photos,but can't on this post. I looked at your site yesterday,but couldn't find anything about this.
link for Helen Duncan;
http://www.helenduncan.org.uk/articles/churchills-witch.html

see ya! Lilly

Kas

Harry Price

Interest in magic and conjuring

In his autobiography, Search for Truth, Price said the “Great Sequah” in Shrewsbury was "entirely responsible for shaping much of my life’s work", and led to him acquiring the first volume of what would become the Harry Price Library, Price later became an expert amateur conjurer, joined the Magic Circle in 1922 and maintained a lifelong interest in stage magic and conjuring. His expertise in sleight-of-hand and magic tricks stood him in good stead for what would become his all consuming passion, the investigation of paranormal phenomena.

Psychical research

A photograph of Price and a Spirit taken by William Hope. Later proven to be a fake. Price's first major success in psychical research came in 1922 when he exposed the 'spirit' photographer William Hope. During the same year, Price traveled to Germany together with Eric Dingwall and investigated Willi Schneider, traveled to Mount Brocken in Germany to conduct a 'black magic' experiment in connection with the centenary of Goethe, involving the transformation of a goat into a young man. The following year, Price made a formal offer to the University of London to equip and endow a Department of Psychical Research, and to loan the equipment of the National Laboratory and its library. The University of London Board of Studies in Psychology responded positively to this proposal and, in 1934, the University of London Council for Psychical Investigation was formed with Price as Honorary Secretary and Editor.

In 1934, the National Laboratory of Psychical Research took on its most illustrious case. £50 was paid to the medium Helen Duncan so that she could be examined under scientific conditions. A sample of Helen Duncan's ectoplasm had been previously examined by the Laboratory and found to be largely made of egg white. Price found that Duncan's spirit manifestations were cheesecloth that had been swallowed and regurgitated by Duncan. Price later wrote up the case in Leaves from a Psychist’s Case Book in a chapter called "The Cheese-cloth Worshippers". During Duncan's famous trial in 1944, Price gave his results as evidence for the prosecution.

Price's psychical research continued with investigations into Karachi's Indian rope trick and the fire-walking abilities of Kuda Bux in 1935. He was also involved in the formation of the National Film Library (British Film Institute) becoming its first chairman (until 1941) and was a founding member of the Shakespeare Film Society. In 1936, Price broadcast from a supposedly haunted manor house in Meopham, Kent for the BBC and published The Confessions of a Ghost-Hunter and The Haunting of Cashen's Gap. This year also saw the transfer of Price's library on permanent loan to the University of London(see external links below), followed shortly by the laboratory and investigative equipment. In 1937, he conducted further televised experiments into fire-walking with Ahmed Hussain at Carshalton and Alexandra Palace, and also rented Borley Rectory for one year. The following year, Price re-established the Ghost Club, with himself as chairman, conducted experiments with Rahman Bey who was 'buried alive' in Carshalton and drafted a Bill for the regulation of psychic practitioners. In 1939, he organized a national telepathic test in the periodical John O'London's Weekly. During the 1940s, Price concentrated on writing and the works The Most Haunted House in England, Poltergeist Over England and The End of Borley Rectory were all published.

mark

have a look here ....http://www.freewebs.com/afterlife/articles/crowley.htm

david hobbs

I love the bit about regurgitating cheesecloth.

Try swallowing three feet of cheese cloth before going in to a room full of people. Then having a full body search, vagina included. Then being sown into a sack and then regurgitating the cloth.

I would like to see James Randi have a go at that one.

In fact just try to swallow a handkerchief and the regurgitate it.

Kas

Thinking back to the programme, didn't he eventually put her in a wooden box so that just her head poked out and then said that she could of moved stuff with a stick under her chin? Thought that a bit unlikely.
Or am I thinking of something else?

david hobbs

david hobbs

The interesting thing here to me is that on this forum we have someone who's parents were involved in all this and they claim that the press altered the Ducan pictures to discredit her.

Surely this is important news for an investigator.

Kas

Yes I found that claim very interesting too.

With regard's to Harry Price. Having done alot of research on him and his understudy Peter Underwood. They were both showmen. More so Price.
It made me chuckle when he was refered to as a later day Donnis.

Interesting reading about Price's conjuring background. Didn't by any chance remind you of a certain Houdini?

david hobbs

Kas

Kas

david hobbs

It usualy is Magicians and mentalists. Randi Houdini, Price etc etc etc.

I think it could be a touch of proffesional jelousy.

How would you feel if you tried all of your life to do the best trick ever and be number one magician only to be upstaged by a chuby lady from up north.

Pretty pissed off I would think.

Raymond

Harry Price is a very interesting man. I was a member of The Ghost Club (TGC) for a while and before you can join fully you have to swear an oath to follow Harry's example.
Considering how bland and dull TGC has become I'm sure he's turning in his grave.

He also carried out quite extensive studies of Borley Rectory. TGC treat the place as a sort of Mecca.

I wouldn't mind so much but there's nothing left of the Rectory except a tiny outhouse.

Kas

Kas

Raymond

Kas

So... Was Helen Duncan a fake then?
Certainly it appears she did fake some things. Was it all fake though?
I would suggest going on what I have seen, that Duncan believed she had psychic ability. But like most commercially successful mediums she felt the need to knowingly fake things to convince the people on the fence and increase the belief of others, not unlike alot of platform mediums on 21st century puplic ghost hunts I guess.
Price was in the right place at the right time. The scientific community on his side already he seized his oppotunity to out Duncan and in the process increased his own profile as an authorative paranormal investigator and public celebrity.

david hobbs

So as you see patterns appear and history repeats itself.

Will Jon Donni's or Derren Brown replace the decrepit old James Randi.

I don't think Brown needs the money and I don't think Donni's is up to the intellectual challenge.

So I may have a go myself.

Kas. You made no mention of Helen Duncan's connection with the sinking of the Hood and how it was that which led to her incarceration and probably her early death.

Establishment wanted her out of the way

Why?

Great posts though.

Lilly

Lilly

Raymond

Is this Lily Of The Valley?

david hobbs

david hobbs

Kas

So is there evidence that the photos were doctored?

david hobbs

Kas

Thing is if I passed it to Assap it would be behind closed doors.

david hobbs

Do they have a problem with public scrutiny.

Kas investigate it your self mate.

I am a nosey b****r

Kas

No client confidentiality.

Maybe we could just ask Lilly to post what happened?

Lilly

Yes Raymond , it is L.O.T.V.
I tried to attach a faked photo taken by Harry Price but the image was not the right kind to post [wrong format].
I have no way of proving this information,as My parents,who attended many of Helen Duncans' seances are now on the other side of 'the veil' and probably having a good laugh between them.
I am only going by what they told me,and as I told David,they were not the kind of people to be easily duped. My father had a very scientific approach to these things. Both my parents knew Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and some other reputable mediums of the era.

Hunter

As regards Harry Price, I suppose the latest "expert" on him is Darren Ritson . Author of the South Shields poltergeist book.

Lilly

david hobbs

Do you have the original Lilly.

When I look at the picture even in a dimly lit room I feel it would be a bit of a job to convince people that this was anything other than a mask.

Personaly I would have laughed in the faces of these people.
Not to insult them but because I just wouldn't be able to help myself.

I once caused a huge outburst in a Spritualist Church when at question time I asked the medium if you get a better message if you pay for it.

Never could keep my mouth shut.

Lilly

I don't have the original,only Harry Price had that.
The following is the closest I can get to the original.Note that the 'ectoplasm is not coming out of her nose,where it should be,but has obviously been planted on. True ectoplasm is misty. My Dad too, would have laughed in their faces,but as I said earlier,the image you see here is not the image seen at the seance.

Lilly

I'll try again later,my image didn't appear [been 'spirited' away] LOL

Lilly

Success! not such a smart 'a' am I? but I get there in the end!

Kas

Well i'm off to see a paranormal illusionist next Saturday in Oxford.
I'll let you know what happens.

Kas

Lilly,
thankyou for posting the pictures, and thankyou for telling us this story.
Hopefully we can bring a few things to light.
I am at the current conclusion that the photo's were faked by an outside party. Let's see what we can find out?

Kas

Raymond

It looks like Cilla Black.

"Step inside love..."

david hobbs

This thread is becoming more intiuging by the day.

The great thing is that these people, Price and Duncan etc are Oh so human.

As someone said a fraud investigating a fraud.

I don't hold with that myself, because I simply don't know, but when you have a person of experience like Lilly stating that the ectoplasm photo's were faked by price then it adds another dimension to the whole thing.

Lilly may I ask you if you have any friends or aquaintances with experience of the Duncan/ Price era.

Kas

http://www.helenduncan.org.uk/index.html

I see there is no mention of Price or the photo's on the official website.
Reading it though, Duncan's campaigners solely point the finger at the government and that D-Day was looming. Interesting though that Churchill beleived her?

Raymond

Churchill was a great believer in the paranormal. Apparently he regularly had Mediums visit Downing Street.
The flunkey's worked tirelessly to keep it all from the press.

david hobbs

Two things.

These séances were supposed to have taken place in a dim light yet the pictures look bright. So someone must have done something to them I should think.

I saw mention on another site that Churchill in fact used Helen Duncan as a medium himself.

If I were prime minister and had a genuine soothsayer available I wouldn't lock her up I would see what information I could get toward the war effort.

Lilly

Kas

Kas

david hobbs

May be, but I don't think any medium would want a flash going off during a sitting.

No more than any stage performer would want flashing lights in their eyes when they are on stage.

Kas

But equally you can't take a photo in the dark.
That must be next weeks lesson.

david hobbs

Perhaps Lilly will know as her parents were there at the time it was taken.

Raymond

david hobbs

For my part and being totally honest I wouldn't trust any psychic input if it meant basing my life and that of others on it.

But I guess that's just me.

Raymond

And only a fool would...

But why is it such a strange thing to think a leader wouldn't want that extra element when having to make such important decisions?

david hobbs

Well the Germans must have had some very dodgey psychics.

Far viewing by government agencies to spy on other nations is a documented fact.

So yes leaders would and do use everything at their disposal.

But we all know how iffy the input can be.

Lilly

Lilly

david hobbs wrote:
If I were prime minister and had a genuine soothsayer available I wouldn't lock her up I would see what information I could get toward the war effort.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Helen Duncan always stated firmly that she did not make predictions,only brought through spirits who had passed on.

Kas

Lilly, sorry if you have said this already but what was the relationship of your parents to Helen Duncan?

Lilly

Kas

Ok thanks Lilly.
Do the Essex Healers Association still exist then?

Lilly

Raymond

Show us the photo Lil.

david hobbs

I was about to get my Essex Healers certificate when it was withheld due to the fact that I was consorting with majicians. This was done by my church and not by the society I might add.
I vowed never to join another society and to do my own thing

Raymond

What?

david hobbs

Raymond.

When I was healing at the Spiritualist Church They found out that I was working with majicians and learning about that sort of thing. Not that I had to learn because I was and still am, on a good day, a natural.

I was due to get my Certificate of healing or what ever it is called but I never did.

Mysteriously it never arrived no matter how much I enquired.

Then the penny dropped and I realised what was going on.

That was when I began to fall out of love with the Spiritualist movement.

Fire_Dragon

David majicians interest me, where can I find out more?

This site gets more interesting....

Fire Dragon

Kas

david hobbs

Fire_Dragon

And this website has no information on it?

Fire Dragon

Kas

david hobbs

Kas

What happened to the Majik section on here?

Lilly

david hobbs

Kas

Is that an orb?

Doh!!!!!!

Lilly

Kas

Kas

Lilly

Lilly

david hobbs

Quote.....Theres one on the other side too[pun not intended!

OOooooo Lilly

So bad

Raymond

It's dust!

swanlady

Lilly

Kas

There's one very important name that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread and is the one person believed to be the person behind Duncan's conviction.

Ian Flemming.