does enlightenment exist?

billy nomates · does enlightenment exist?

has anyone ever met a person who is or claims to be enlightened?
how could we tell if they were?

evergreen

yes I have met a few gurus who claim enlightment.. they appear rather peaceful...

and stupidly I get referred to as enlightened by others because I come across as unruffled, calm and rather peaceful...

so maybe an enlightened person is someone totally at peace with the universe life and all things in it.. I know when I am feeling at my most peaceful I feel as though I am breating in the universe that everyone shares my breath as though the collective energy of all beings is running through my system......

please note I do not claim to be enlightened at all :D

Sceptic Tel

I met someone that would like to claim enlightenment

:roll: Other than that it has only been authors of the books that I have read that claim to be Enlightened.

IMHO claiming to be Enlightened leads me to believe that infact someone is not.....but then perhaps it is their belief that they are Enlightened that makes them Enlightened!

That's a lot of Enlightening

evergreen

I think that is most likely a thought that we are all thinking sceptic tel.. :D

david hobbs

The only person whom I have met and I felt to be enlightened would never have claimed to be so.

I can only say that by his words and deeds that to me he must have either been enlightened or very close to being so.

The thing is that an unenlightened person would never know how to recognise and enlightened person.

So why even try?

billy nomates

because i want to know if it really exists or not.............

it seems that millions try to follow buddhism,taoism,osho, etc but the world doesnt seem to be full of enlightened people does it?

have i been wasting my time?
the buddha apparently gave up after years of trying and almost starving himself to death and then he was given grace......
so what kind of game is this?

what is the point of trying to achieve it ( i know it supposedly cannot be achieved !).........some say that existence has to include good and bad....(think of the yin and yang symbol)..
as i imagine enlightenment as being in a peaceful and joyous state then surely it would be changing the balance? So is it a case of actually trying to impose our will on the universe and a form of soiritual one-upmanship?
ie i am an enlightened guru and you are all savages driven by your disgusting desires?

meiah

Surely an enlightened person would not judge, as even the disgusting savages are part of the whole, and so are to be valued equally?

Why are the savages disgusting? Because they are crude? that in itself is a judgement

Who says they are disgusting? Who says they are savage? Why must there be a hierarchy? Why must one person be above another, and in whose opinion? (In danger of sounding very hippy now, but really, why?)

david hobbs

If enlightenment is the transformation of how you perceive now , to how you would like to perceive then the above makes interesting reading.

If I look at a flower do I see beauty or do I see a plants sexual organs?

meiah

And as always, both questions and answers show more about the person than they intended :D

david hobbs

meiah

For me, perception is what you are aware of.

Perspective is how you interpret that, according to your value systems, knowledge and experience.

So for me, enlightenment is being aware of all that there is, but without the judgement you make when interpreting what you are aware of against your values, knowledge and experience.

In this way, what you know, and what/how you think can limit what you percieve.

Thus, we are all able to percieve all that there is, but we often do not because we are limited by our perspective.

david hobbs

meiah

Oooh dear. Surrender, to me, has connotations of defeat, giving up.

I guess if you are talking about giving up the self, then maybe so.
Hmm, I wonder if that is why I have never felt enlightened, because the idea of giving up the self makes me feel vulnerable (Ooops, fears and ego)
I return to the idea that in order to be enlightened, would that make me less "human"? (Eek, fears and judgements!!)
Also, questions around loss of control (Oh heck, ego, fears and judgements!!)

Good grief, this thread is taking an odd "examination of the self" turn

david hobbs

meiah

Each one of us associates feelings or memories to words, otherwise would words have any meaning for us personally? Don't we? Otherwise word association would just not work

If I were to say "wayne", what image would that word conjure up? Its just a name, isn't it?

This is the problem with verbal communication, it is not just the dictionary definition of a word, it is what it means to us personally.

And I have no problem with self examination, its just not normally so public (fear of being judged). Maybe I should keep my typing to myself

.
The thing is, we trip over semantics and so do not always understand each other. In this thread, that will not help much.

So, by surrender, do you mean "giving up the self"?

evergreen

I use the word surrended also... it is like totally going with the flow

meiah

How does that differ from stepping back from the self?

billy nomates

i have tried it all...meditate,do this -do that,surrender,go with the flow..............given up.even that didnt work..........

given up judgement too............

so does it exist?
i do not think so.........
there are people that are calm and serene but what goes on underneath?
ie buddhas disciples were all involved in one-upmanship.........they were quite put out that the first one to be enlightened was allegedly of lesser intelligence...........so is it just about manipulation of the masses?

another case of putting someone on a pedestal and duping the savages into blind submission?just another means of control?

be a good boy and you may get to heaven?

evergreen

like I said I dont' think you can be reach eternal enlightened.. I think you can have enlightened moments in time and perhaps even stages in your life where you are enlightened... then another wave of learning kicks in and you are once again out there walking the walk doing the work learning and striving so you can reach another point of enlightenment and so the cycle continues....

I dont 'think you should ever lose the self.. it is perhaps realising that the self is part of all else.. but an important part, not insignificant as so many attempt to say....

Is the term enlightenment a term used to keep people in a place.. um not sure.. I call myself perfect and people straight away feel uncomfortable with it... yet they dont' feel uncomfortable with calling some natural scene perfect.. what is the difference? I ask.. are we not both equally important? equally special? and therefore equally perfect?? !!!! some form of this enlighten stuff must come from learning to be humble and also learning to embrace your greatness and be seen for who you are not what you attain to be

david hobbs

Could it be that the desire for enlightenment being an emotion prevents it's attainment?

evergreen

:roll: oh god proabably....

my mind is going to sleep.... I shall think on this next visit..

what do you think David?

Sceptic Tel

I agree David, it what I was implying in this topic http://ghe.myfreeforum.org/about543.html

It seems that when you try your hardest whatever you are trying to attain remains just out of reach, ease up on your efforts things seem to fall into place. At least that's been my experience, however despite this lesson I still try very hard for attainment.

One of my friends is the happiest guy I know, he's everyones mate and seems to have the midas touch. He is not religious or profound yet I envy him. Is he enlightened?

meiah

Nah, just happy!

In my experience, happy people "attract" what maes them happy. They see (consciously or subconsciously) what will make them happy, and they follow that route.

Next time you see him, give him a hug from me :D

billy nomates

lucky bleeder!

according to buddhism one has to go through the veil of sorrow before coming out the other side...........

what does that mean?
well, for some reason a spark ignited in some of us at some stage,which forced us to look at life in a different way.........i am not saying it is a good or a bad thing......

we all have our own path.why? ****** if i know!

but if someone is happy or lucky then that is perfect.
again buddhism seeks an end to suffering for ALL creatures........

which believe it or not is my deepest desire.
(as long as i win the lottery first)!

evergreen

the real question is .. is he happy on his own .... that is the greatest form of happiness...

I love buddhism and many of the ideas from it run very true to me one thing that can be missed in the way many of the ideas are protrayed is that, you can not be happy with anyone else unless you are happy with yourself first....

david hobbs

evergreen

I dont' get the envy thing.... I just don;t see the point in being envious of another why would you wnat to be someone else?

david hobbs

Trying to be like someone else is to look away from the self and become blind.

evergreen

thanks I never thought of it like that ...wow now I understand some people far better than ever

david hobbs

Sceptic Tel

But what is mean?

Doesn't looking at others make you reflect upon yourself? When I first met my popular mate I almost resented the ease that he experiences living his life. N complicated thinking, no pursuit of excellence, just is and enjoying it. As someone said that is what I see what goes on behind the scenes is beyond me.

So why envy? I went to type my reply but now I see....Thank you all.

david hobbs

evergreen

still I dont 'do envy... I am pretty happy to be me

Sceptic Tel

david hobbs

I wonder if enlightenment brings complete open mindedness.

evergreen

I think that is a pretty good explanation of it

david hobbs

I just love it when people say to me that they are open minded.

I show them in two seconds that they are not.

I am not by the way.

But I do know it.

david hobbs

Just realised. Without thought there is open mindedness.

Sceptic Tel

david hobbs

evergreen

hehehe dear me you two.... :D

I have thought more on this envy thing, and in truth envy is something I do struggle with in my life.. not me being envious but others being envious of me and even then I still do not understand....

I really do not have any concept of wanting to be like another??? there have been times when I wanted things like a stable family relationship but I have come to understanding and acceptance with all of those things...

so even though you let seem to think you have explained it please enlighten me further why do people envy others .. do you really do it? or do you know others that are envious so you understand it?.. does everyone feel envy? i think I know what it is.. but what is the cause of this feeling - why dont i have it?

meiah

I have envy. Usually not for long, but it is there.
Why do I not have the money to do ...whatever....when so and so has so much? Wouldn't it be great to be able to do.....whatever....like so-and-so?

Then I remember that I love my life. I have the ground, the base that I wished for, and am enjoying it. I have the freedom to be what I choose, and I am becoming more (and less) every moment.

I enjoy envy. It shows me what I have.

evergreen

good way of looking at it meiah... fantastic infact...

I am now more aware of the fact that I am not envious and have even more to be thankful for in my life

david hobbs

I can honestly say that I am not familiar with envy.

People have or do not have and I don't see that as anything to do with me.

I do occasionally want things but not because someone else has them.

I suppose envy is an expression of inadequacy and I don't feel that either.

Envy is telling yourself that you cannot attain something, and so you will not. It is giving away your power (got that from Meiah)

Envy sets you beneath that which you are envious of.

I'm just so perfect

evergreen

yes you are as are we all :)

david hobbs

Samjaza

To say " I am enlightened" is surely to associate this state with self~ ego. therefore he cannot be enlightened.
anyone who claims to be enlightened cannot be.
You will know them because they seem to radiate peace in their company and will not smother you with condescending self righteousness. You leave them feeling completely different. i have met one or two. I have met hundreds of others who are very philosophically, at peace, etc.

Sceptic Tel

In an interview with Dan Millman (author of Peaceful Warrior) he said:

david hobbs

I think that a major part of enlightenment is to cease to struggle.

Acceptance perhaps?

david hobbs

I have found what I think may be a good definition of the enlightened state.

It is the disappearance of self, and being all.

Therefore the feelings we have about ourselves, that's all feelings and thoughts, prevent us attaining this state.

The reason that we feel energised in the presence of an enlightened one is because they are in effect radiating a connection to the one.

THEY are not in the way.

Fear of loss of identity is what holds us back from our true state.

I am living a lie.

evergreen

I had a client come to me the other day she is a incredible healer though very ill herself... such an interesting case

She has done a course on enlightenment and says she has attained it - yet she is utterly miserable and very sick..

the first thing I noted was her need for control and her total lack in recognising it - she would actually stop me mid sentacnce to tell me what my reading meant.. and even though I was able to pick up the ills of her body mind and spirit she kept saying they were only symptoms of the real issue which was the fact she lacked sleep- unfortunately she missed the whole point that he body was shutting down becasue he mind was closed and she had given up hope

I hope she wil one day actually listen to the reading I gave her and pay some attention to it ..

in the end I did it for free because she exasperated me so much with her ability to have some reason for why things were extra bad for her and not for others .. unfortunately never once did she look at herself....

and this is an enlightened person who said she finds it hard to have some one do energy work on her because there are so few that are at as high a vibration as her and they all drain her- wowsers .. does she need a reality check... she was inadvertedly trying to suck me dry LOL

I could see all the beauty below the surface I hope it is allowed to once again flow

david hobbs

You cannot teach someone who already knows everything.

I have tried and it just don't work.

evergreen

oh yes that is very true.. she was a highly trained extremely successful alternative health professional and she kept telling me so

Though I do not feel my job is to teach but to perhaps shine or bring some light through the clouds for others to help themselve..

I wondered why she bothered to book a session with me- and I told her so

I felt it I needed to be hardlined with her because she wouldnt' listen to anyone lesat of all herself

I do get the feeling that we will connected again - under different circumstances and I really do feel she will help ferself soon

david hobbs

evergreen

I love people like that- i know a few

meiah

evergreen

we can be ourselves and be acutely aware of the connection with have to all other things - I don't' think there is any need to lose the self I think in fact we may be fooling ourselves if we think we are able to do this at all times...