david hobbs
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Do the Gods have an existenceI want to relate something that happened to me about 15 years ago.
I had been working on a magikal path for some years and had experienced some quite amazing things. Being me, I never could really come to terms with the fact that I was working with certain God forms that as ridiculous as it sounds did seem to come to "life" when I worked with them.
One evening when I was in a particularly negative mood and doubting all of the things that had happened to me I was pondering the reality of these God forms, and elementals. I was convinced that they had no existence. How could they. The very idea was idiotic to say the least.
I walked out of my back door and looked up at the night sky and made the statement"if the gods have an existence give me a sign". As I said it a shooting star sped across the sky from north to south and I must say that it took e by surprise.
I went back in and thought about it and decided that it was obviously just a coincidence, so I went back outside again. Looking up at the night sky I began to ask for another sign, but before I could finish the request another shooting star crossed the sky on precisely the same trajectory. This surprised me even more because the odds against that must have been pretty slim.
Not to be fooled by coincidence I went up into the garden and stood by the pond that I had dug some years before.
I don't know why but I was feeling a little angry to be even asking this silly question. "THERE ARE NO GODS" I stated.
The next thing I knew I was knocked flying by an invisible something and picking myself up from the floor more than a little shaken I said"well perhaps there are"
I went back indoors and just accepted what had happened to me as par for the course along with all of the other strange occurrences over the years.
A few months later a Christian friend came to visit, and we were up in the garden chatting by the pond. She was a devout Christian and it was obvious that she needed to ask me something. Eventually she did.
David do you think there really is such a thing as God.
I was again surprised but it was obvious that my friend was having a crisis of faith. I told her what had happened to me on the very spot on which we were standing.
I wonder if what happened was for me or for her. Perhaps it was for both of us.
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Raymond
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The problem is that we've come to think of 'god' as this all-powerful, all-knowing, all-encompassing being who lives 'somewhere' else.
Early man would have seen the 'gods' almost as regular people who lives in certain places at certain times. They viewed them almost as friends that could be called upon at certain times of need.
The Goddess Holda apparently 'lives' on the site now known as Greenwich Park in London.
A few years ago I attended a Holda workshop in Greenwich Park and I suppose some would say it my imagination but I had a couple of strange experiences that day, for example the Goddess Holda is said to be the only Goddess who prefers the company of Men to Women, it was obvious the men on this course took more away with them than the women folk did.
I still visit Greenwich Park at least once a year to pay my respect to the lovely Holda.
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david hobbs
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Thank you Raymond
That is what it is all about.
I forget sometimes.
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Raymond
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It's your age Hobbs.
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david hobbs
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Can't argue with that.
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Lilly
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| Raymond wrote: | The problem is that we've come to think of 'god' as this all-powerful, all-knowing, all-encompassing being who lives 'somewhere' else.
Early man would have seen the 'gods' almost as regular people who lives in certain places at certain times. They viewed them almost as friends that could be called upon at certain times of need.
The Goddess Holda apparently 'lives' on the site now known as Greenwich Park in London.
A few years ago I attended a Holda workshop in Greenwich Park and I suppose some would say it my imagination but I had a couple of strange experiences that day, for example the Goddess Holda is said to be the only Goddess who prefers the company of Men to Women, it was obvious the men on this course took more away with them than the women folk did.
I still visit Greenwich Park at least once a year to pay my respect to the lovely Holda. |
ooo! I wish I knew that when I was young; I spent every Saturday at Greenwich park between the age of 12 to 15,alternating with a visit to the Royal Observatory,which started off my love of all things planetary,and astronomy. I last went there in 1977 when I took a photo of Paul with his feet astride the 'meridian line',which I now hear has a green laser beam on/in it?
Greenwich Park is the last place I visited before emigrating to I.O.W.
It holds a special place in my heart,don't know why. I would love to go there again.Tell me more about the goddess Holda ...
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Samjaza
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Greenwich, symbollically is where time starts eh? although it';s a man made thing, being at a place designated 0 degrees is quite a good starting place for any sort of ritual?
Is Greenwich an etymollogy of Green Witch?
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Tommy
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Actually David, when you asked your question "Do the Gods exist?", did you clarify who and/or what were the Gods? God is after all; just a word, and your understanding of a god may be fundamentally different to others. After all, to some football fans, David Beckham is a God. To religious individuals, God is a terrifying big man on a throne who will judge us one day in the future. To many ancients, a God was any force of nature over which they had no control, and also in many ancients a God was a big statue or an idol. So does God exist? Well the word "God" definitely exists... beyond that, who can tell!
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Raymond
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Hate to say it, but great post Tommy. You see? I knew that getting you away from those harridans on SOS would do you a favour.
Lily, there is a green laser that goes over London. It isn't along the floor of the meridian it's in the sky. On a clear night I can see it from my balcony. I'll see if I can track down a picture of it.
Sam, I've had some wonderful rituals in Greenwich Park. I've had some great sex too, but we'll leave that for another time.
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david hobbs
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Take another peek at the question.
Do the Gods have an existence.
That is quite a bit different to does God exist.
I know it sounds like the same question but I refer to USING God forms.
That is to say in a sense is saying the Gods exist or do I make them exist.
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Kas
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Have you ever prayed?
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david hobbs
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| Kas wrote: | | Have you ever prayed? |
Who has not.
And in the praying we are creating perhaps?
Praying is no different to making a spell if carried out with training and intent.
Some are better at both things than others though.
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Hunter
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We all know that "God" exists & she's black !!
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meiah
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Am fuddled.
I read this question, and hear "do the gods have an existence" as "do the Gods experience an existence"
Why?
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Raymond
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As a pagan you will often hear me bang on about this god and that goddess.
Someone once asked me how do I keep up with all of them because there seems to be thousands of gods and goddesses in paganism.
Think of it like a mirrorball. Lots and lots of different faces each reflecting something similar, but different - yet each part of the same thing.
I believe that as mere humans we couldn't possibly understand the 'one'. The living creative energy that is part of all of us and everything.
So we give it a name. A face. A backstory and make it as 'human' as we possibly can in order to have a relationship with it.
Would a dog see God as a human? No, a dog would see God as another dog.
This was another reason why I became so interested in paganism. The relationships you have with the gods is very much a two-way street.
They need us as much as we need them.
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meiah
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Thats an interesting point. Would a god exist if no-one believed in him / her?
The mirrorball analogy is one I have come across before, but to illustrate ourselves, our perspectives and our outlook (and outlook used as just that...looking out)
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Bravo
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So if you are attributing a god with gender then does that mean you are assuming the god is human? Which by definition cannot be so.
If that is the case, what race would a god be? Presumably alien to this planet. If so, where would such a god come from, and why would they be interested in us?
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david hobbs
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| meiah wrote: | Am fuddled.
I read this question, and hear "do the gods have an existence" as "do the Gods experience an existence"
Why? |
I think that possibly the Gods have an existence through us and we through them.
Raymond alluded to this in his earlier posts.
Nothing could exist without us. Me in fact.
That's how I see it.
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Raymond
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| meiah wrote: | | Would a god exist if no-one believed in him / her? |
No. There are probably thousands of 'gods' whose names, images and meanings have been lost in time and whom nobody worships anymore.
Think of it like a language. Languages are formed to make it easier for human beings to communicate with one another. How many languages are no longer spoken?
Welsh very nearly died out in the last centuary until there was a revival.
The same applies to Gods.
One day the gods that people hold dear today will be gone. New gods that we haven't yet created will replace them.
This goes back to my previous post. Human beings, throughout time, have never really understood what it is we call 'god', just that there is something there to call god.
This 'god' is neither male or female, black or white, it has no form, no speech, it's nothing we could understand - it's so far removed from our experience. So we have to make it as human as possible to understand it. To have a relationship with it.
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meiah
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What would you think of the suggestion that gods exist because we make them exist. That they are a way to understand what we do not understand because it is not physical. A way to understand forces, principles, that are so fundamental to all that is that we cannot see it.
Not higher, better, above ....but instead what forms / creates / maintains....and with a purpose no deeper than that....just to be all that is, and to experience all that is.
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Raymond
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| meiah wrote: | | What would you think of the suggestion that gods exist because we make them exist. |
That's what I've been saying all along.
If all the christians in the world suddenly stopped being christian there would be no further use for Jesus.
Many of those people however would still feel the need to worship a god. So they would have to create something else to take the place of Jesus.
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Lilly
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The Buddhists worship their 'god' Buddha,who was a real human person.
Who knows if the gods of our past were once human,or lived a life on this earth,then eventually became so highly evolved that they became gods,or goddesses? Some appear to our vision as animals.
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Raymond
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Buddhists don't actually view Buddha as a 'god' in the accepted definition of the word 'god'.
They certainly don't worship him. They see him more as a teacher, someone to aspire to.
Apparently Jesus was a real person (even though there is no actual evidence that he was an historical figure) the problem is, the christians have made him into a god.
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Hunter
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No, that's a bit wrong Raymond, he's the son of God to christians. Nuance !!
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Raymond
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So what is he? A demi-God? He's is prayed to and worshipped, in my book that makes him a god.
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Tommy
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| david hobbs wrote: | Take another peek at the question.
Do the Gods have an existence.
That is quite a bit different to does God exist.
I know it sounds like the same question but I refer to USING God forms.
That is to say in a sense is saying the Gods exist or do I make them exist. |
Yes David but your question did not clarify this. Your question could have been interpreted in many ways. Either way, if you make them exist, they exist. If they made you exist, they exist. All is connected in our Universe, so if we exist, so must they... but in what form?
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Bravo
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| Tommy wrote: | | All is connected in our Universe, so if we exist, so must they... |
That assumes that 'gods' are not an invention of man. Unless you are including inventions of man in your statement? In which case I hereby invent peanut fairies and deem them to be in existence.
Would that be fair?
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david hobbs
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| Tommy wrote: | | David Hobbs wrote: | Take another peek at the question.
Do the Gods have an existence.
That is quite a bit different to does God exist.
I know it sounds like the same question but I refer to USING God forms.
That is to say in a sense is saying the Gods exist or do I make them exist. |
Yes David but your question did not clarify this. Your question could have been interpreted in many ways. Either way, if you make them exist, they exist. If they made you exist, they exist. All is connected in our Universe, so if we exist, so must they... but in what form? |
I do wish I had your level of certainty Tommy, but yours seems based on theory only.
I really do not know if the Gods have an existence outside of any interaction with us. And I would never presume to say that they do or do not.
I can only guess and work things out from my own experiences.
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Lilly
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| Raymond wrote: | | So what is he? A demi-God? He's is prayed to and worshipped, in my book that makes him a god. |
I was brought up in the Greater World Christian Spiritualist church, and we never worshipped Jesus as God,or any of the other titles the Church of England bestow on him. To us,he was 'The Nazarene', a great man,teacher, medium, healer and an inspiration. Never was I taught that he was a saviour of men,or the Holy Ghost, son of God,or God incarnate.
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david hobbs
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| Lilly wrote: | | Raymond wrote: | | So what is he? A demi-God? He's is prayed to and worshipped, in my book that makes him a god. |
I was brought up in the Greater World Christian Spiritualist church, and we never worshipped Jesus as God,or any of the other titles the Church of England bestow on him. To us,he was 'The Nazarene', a great man,teacher, medium, healer and an inspiration. Never was I taught that he was a saviour of men,or the Holy Ghost, son of God,or God incarnate. |
And this is a classic example of how we humans invent things to suit our own particular belief systems.
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Raymond
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What the hell do I know?, I'm just a simple heathen.
My gods are in the trees and rivers and plants, not some great unapproachable sky-god on a cloud somewhere.
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Tommy
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Well, David, I didn't mean to imply that I was talking from any degree of certainty...I was trying to emphasise the uncertainty of it all. If you ask "Do the Gods have an existence?", what reply can there be but yes. But who is answering? Who are the Gods? Gods certainly exist in folklore and legend. Highly evolved spirits exist in the higher planes, but are they gods? Maybe we see them as such, but maybe they see themselves in a much more humble way. Perhaps the ones who really view themselves as Gods are the egotistical beings, the lower beings. I would ask, what sort of being would knock you on the ground in your own back garden?
And Bravo, of course the Peanut Fairy exists! I thought everybody knew that...
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Raymond
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I bloody hope so!
Otherwise where have all the peanuts gone that I've been leaving under my pillow all these years?
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david hobbs
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| Raymond wrote: | What the hell do I know?, I'm just a simple heathen.
My gods are in the trees and rivers and plants, not some great unapproachable sky-god on a cloud somewhere. |
Raymond.
You live in bloody London and only leave if dragged out.
When did you last see a tree or the sky.  As for the rivers, well
there full of piss and plastic bags down where you are
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david hobbs
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| Tommy wrote: | Well, David, I didn't mean to imply that I was talking from any degree of certainty...I was trying to emphasise the uncertainty of it all. If you ask "Do the Gods have an existence?", what reply can there be but yes. But who is answering? Who are the Gods? Gods certainly exist in folklore and legend. Highly evolved spirits exist in the higher planes, but are they gods? Maybe we see them as such, but maybe they see themselves in a much more humble way. Perhaps the ones who really view themselves as Gods are the egotistical beings, the lower beings. I would ask, what sort of being would knock you on the ground in your own back garden?
And Bravo, of course the Peanut Fairy exists! I thought everybody knew that... |
quote.... I would ask, what sort of being would knock you on the ground in your own back garden?).........
Oh dear.
Tommy do you really think that the forces of nature, your Gods nature that is, comply to your nice woolly way of seeing things.
Take a look at the world if you want to see God. And don't make excuses for this "Gods" violent and hateful tendencies by blaming it on some convenient lower being.
A God so nice that he wouldn't push me to the ground.
Have you read the papers lately
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Raymond
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| david hobbs wrote: |
Raymond.
You live in bloody London and only leave if dragged out.
When did you last see a tree or the sky. As for the rivers, well
there full uf piss and plastic bags down where you are |
Since when do you know me?
I don't know if you need to get your leg over or something Hobbs but your mood today is foul.
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Tommy
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So David, who are these Gods? Where do they live? Are they on a higher plane? What is their connection with our souls? Etc? Etc?
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Tommy
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| david hobbs wrote: |
quote.... I would ask, what sort of being would knock you on the ground in your own back garden?).........
Oh dear.
Tommy do you really think that the forces of nature, your Gods nature that is, comply to your nice woolly way of seeing things.
Take a look at the world if you want to see God. And don't make excuses for this "Gods" violent and hateful tendencies by blaming it on some convenient lower being.
A God so nice that he wouldn't push me to the ground.
Have you read the papers lately |
Hmm, it appears Raymond is right. You are in a foul mood. Wooly minded? I ask questions for the precise purpose of clarifying... that is after all the whole point of a debate.
It appears you are referring to the varied, often chaotic forces of nature as your god, am I right? In that case the only way that particular God would knock you to the ground is with an unexpected gust of wind... or perhaps a meteorite hitting you...
Many people ask the question "Is there a God?" and obviously very few have been knocked to the ground... or there would be a lot more churchgoers!
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david hobbs
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| Tommy wrote: | | So David, who are these Gods? Where do they live? Are they on a higher plane? What is their connection with our souls? Etc? Etc? |
Oohhh there he goes again.
Soul? what ruddy soul.
Yet another man made construct.
Higher planes?
Jeeezzzzuss weppttt.
Take the jargon out of what you say Tommy and there is nothing but air to fill the page.
By the way.
I am in a great mood today, not foul at all.
Just keeping you on your toes
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Tommy
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I'm building another computer at the moment and it's keeping me on my toes quite nicely thank you!
Oh, and you've obviously provoked the god of snow... I leave those gods alone, so as you can see... you're under six feet of snow and I'm not! Not a flake to be seen! 
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david hobbs
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Building computers?
Are they built.
I thought they just turned up on the shelves at Computer world.
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Raymond
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I will not tolerate any bitch bitching Tommy except this bitch.
Tommy is MY bitch to bitch and no other bitch's.
So back off bitch!!!
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Tommy
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Ooh Raymond... you bitch!
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david hobbs
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Oh possessiveness will be your downfall.
I bet you even have your own seat on the bus.
Are there really six S's in possessiveness?
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Lilly
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Tommy said; Many people ask the question "Is there a God?" and obviously very few have been knocked to the ground... or there would be a lot more churchgoers!
Tommy,have you never seen the 'gospel' type churchgoers where the pastor places his hand on sinner's heads and pushes them to the ground,in the name of Jesus! They all line up and along comes the pastor,with the power of God,and they all fall down [pushed] like flies.
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Tommy
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Yes it used to be zealous pastors who pushed the humble to the ground, now it's comapny directors, desperate to save their profits.
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david hobbs
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| Tommy wrote: | | Yes it used to be zealous pastors who pushed the humble to the ground, now it's company directors, desperate to save their profits. |
From what i have seen It is the Evangelical ministers who are thinking of their profits.
They must be making a fortune judging by the size of the congregations.
You can see that the people being pushed are simply doing what is expected of them.
I wonder how many of the healed people remain healed. If they ever are in the first place.
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meiah
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Ah...you have all cheered me up!!!
If you make your own reality, one where folks can argue over nothing important means they have space in their lives for interest, debate and fun. Tomorrows World was no so far off, just not they way we thought it would be
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evergreen
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I had a pretty strong belief that there was no god that we are all collected and connected and we are the energy of the universe and that the earth and the air and the water are part of us.... here's my story of that hour
A few years back now i did my first shaman drum healing mediation and was taken deep into the earth by a female she took me to a giant emerald green crystal at the center of the earth. While there I became aware of a green cord connecting me to this crystal I listened as it spoke about the earth mother or god as many call her.... then suddenly the female ran with me through the earth where we were joined by a male they took an arm each and we speed out of the earths crust and through the air and out into space where I was impressed to come before a immense ball of white light I kneeled before it and listen as it spoke to me about gods.... I was very aware of other voices being there inside the ball if you like ... other "people/spirits/gods/beings" being a part of this ball of energy
I was humbled by the whole experience and felt a need to not question what is or what is not but to embrace me and know that I am connected to above and below and that the life energy that flows through me is the same that flows through all others.. we are connected to some god source does god exist yes of course I am here am I not
perhaps we are each part of it perhaps not .. I like to think that the connection is there whether we recognise it or not
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